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Whill
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Whill
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 Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:29 am Post subject: Re: the empty suit |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | I also have alternate explanations for how Obi-Wan's and Yoda's bodies disappeared when Qui-Gon's hadn't, and for how Anakin had learned to become a Force Ghost despite the power to do so being based on love and therefore being beyond what is possible for Sith on the Dark Side. |
Of course, being the OT/EU-lovin' maverick that I am, I reject the notion that all Jedi don't simply become Force Ghosts |
In the OT, Vader seems surprised that Obi-Wan's body disappeared when he struck him. He even steps on the empty robes to make sure he is not still in there. If all Jedi disappeared and turned into Force Ghosts, wouldn't Vader know that? And why would Obi-Wan bother telling him "If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" if Vader already knew that? And why would Vader tell Palpatine that "Obi-Wan can no longer help him" in reference to Luke? If Vader, who had formerly been a Jedi, knew that all Jedi became Force Ghosts when they died, wouldn't he know that Obi-Wan could still help him? It's obvious to me from the OT alone that Jedi becoming Force Ghosts when they die is not a common thing, so I think the pre-prequel EU just blew it. Yet another example of the EU contradicting film canon, and in this case it is the OT.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | Of course, being the OT/EU-lovin' maverick that I am, I reject the notion that all Jedi don't simply become Force Ghosts (though in the new canon, that would seem to be the case).  But I do agree with you on the 'empty suit' issue... and I am very curious to hear your alternate explanations, if you'd care to share them. |
My explanations are based on the very idea that becoming a Force Ghost is an extremely rare power in the galaxy. If you reject the notion that Jedi don't all become Force Ghosts, then I fail to see why you would have any interest in my ideas.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:35 am Post subject: RE: George Lucas "nonsense" ? |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Which is fine... but to me, it means that talk of 'George's vision' is nonsense |
I admit I'm baffled by the widespread hatred for George Lucas among Star Wars fans. They love some of his products so much to come to websites like this one and talk about them, but they hate the man so much. Without George Lucas, there would not be ANY Star Wars, including the WEG SW RPG and the EU. Showing just a little respect for the genius who created this universe and franchise (and gave over $2 billion confirmed to charity) might go a long way to avoid pejorative labels like hater and troll.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | after all, it's continually changed and been revised... and if we want to get technical, wasn't 'George's Vision' basically Annikin Starkiller and General Skywalker defending Aquilae, with everything after that as a corruption of it? (And really, the idea of a 'master vision' to which future things must be true or false discounts the entire creative process- as you point out, a respawning Obi-wan (and yes, I got the year wrong) was considered, then discarded. That's how creativity works- and it precludes a single 'master idea' in the first place, because every creation is constantly evolving.) |
You're way overreacting (but that seems to be your MO). I nor anyone else's post I read said anything along the lines of 'This one thing that George Lucas said this one time is the way it always has been and since it is thusly set in stone, that is the way it is, period, and the EU is wrong. Thus sayeth the Lord Lucas.' That would be the only sentiment that would warrant such a response as yours.
(1) Sharing what Lucas said one time does not mean it always was and always will be that. There was no suggestion of there not being an evolution of creativity about anything Star Wars.
(2) Sharing what Lucas said does not come with any suggestion of the EU being 'wrong' or retconned. What Lucas said also does not invalidate any individual fan's SW universe.
Cool?
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | It's a long way of saying that to me, none of what 'Lucas says about the films that aren't explicit in the films' is worth consideration |
None? Really? So the man who created Star Wars is not even worth consideration? Wow. I say again, I am baffled by this level of animosity against the creator of something you love so much. Before anyone jumps to this extreme, no, I'm not saying all Star Wars fans should revere Lucas as a god. But show a little respect? Yes. Automatically disagree? No. Automatically agree? Also no. Give what he says due consideration? Yes.
It disturbs me how the mere mention of Lucas' name incites animosity on Star Wars boards. It's getting old.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Certainly, they're interesting notations on what was in his head at any given time... but as actual effects on the Star Wars universe, I (personally) give them far less weight than anything established by the EU or other published/license materials. |
I'm starting to give the ideas of fans who profess to love Star Wars yet illogically despise its creator less weight than the ideas of its creator, so I guess I have my biases too. 8)
Everything I said above was in general, in response to absolute statements, and not specific to the topic of this discussion about stormtroopers. I didn't cite Lucas's statements about Star Wars to try to sway anyone that my way is superior, but it seems to have stimulated an anti-Lucas knee-jerk response anyway. I was merely sharing an idea that makes sense to me, and also sharing the source of the idea. Again, stormtroopers should be whatever you want in your own SWU. Some people reading the thread may be undecided so like to read all the discussion of the possibilities and make their own decision. That's what forums are for.
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Last edited by Whill on Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:52 am Post subject: Re: Stormtrooper clones & recruits |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | The EU also says that by the time of ANH, clones still comprised 1/3 of the Stormtrooper Core, so the EU does not say that they were only recruits |
I did not recall that. Interesting. I stand corrected. |
I sometime spend too much time reading Wookieepedia.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | I'm gonna stick with the belief that the ones we saw in ANH and ROTJ were primarily recruits, though... I see no evidence of clone-like training or discipline. |
I see no evidence of prequel clone-like training or discipline in the classic trilogy. Lucas suggested that creating clone babies required a live gene donor. Lucas said that in the Lucasverse, after Jango Fett died, the selection process for the multiple clone template hosts became largely political and thus varied wildly. The EU did canonize Lucas' ideas that one way that Palpatine remained in power in general is by encouraging a very competitive spirit among his underlings - Having them plot against each other for favor is better than them conspiring against him together. I feel that Lucas' suggestion of the clone genetic sponsor becoming a political honor therefore resulting in many different batches of clones from different hosts of varying caliber goes right along with Palpatine's established MO. And this would be ok because the two most important aspects of the stormtrooper corp would be loyalty and numerical superiority, two things cloning would logically address. And it is well-established in film canon that Palpatine's overconfidence was his weakness. Having a mix including somewhat inept stormtroopers would still mean having more troops and having loyal troops. Just saying!
Wookieepedia even mentions the 1978 Star Wars fact file that says that all stormtroopers are clones of many different originals, so in this case, it just so happened that the publishing of the day based on Lucas' own notes established all stormtroopers being clones 1 year after ANH came out. But as Wookieepedia says, this obscure source was largely forgotten about and the later EU established stormtrooper recruits.
After showing the origin of the stormtrooper corp being the clonetroopers in the prequels, the EU had to explain why there was eventually a decline in clones to jive with the predominance of recruits already established in the EU. They came up with the idea that the Kaminoans, being disgruntled subjects of the Empire, had developed a batch of clones into a secret unit to rebel against Imperial rule. The uprising failed, and Palpatine came to the conclusion that clones in general had a potential to be disloyal so new clones stopped being made (which was meant to explain the decline in clone stormies from attrition and accelerated aging to retirement). That explanation doesn't work for me because how would recruits automatically be any more loyal than clones bred for loyalty and raised from 'birth' specifically to be stormtroopers? Recruits are more likely to rebel against their masters than clones, and the EU even has many examples of recruits that did which seems to contradict their explanation for why they discontinued making new clones, or it at least makes Palpatine out to be a leader who makes gross irrational generalizations. In my SWU, Palpatine is a bit paranoid of betrayal but he is not an idiot.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:48 am Post subject: |
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THe recurits might have been a means of keeping the Jango clones in check. They did (thanks to surprise and secret preprogramming) wipe out the Jedi and left the Repulic open to being overthrown. Palpatine was probably worried that the same tactic (vai Order 65) could have been used against him. Adding the recruits would help to prvent that from happening.
It's probably not all that stupid either, considering that during the time of the Empire there is no major power that rivals the Empire, and the Stormtroopers don't have to be as effcient, and can just be more a symbol of strength.
I can even see Palpatine pulling strings so that those commanders who could potentially be the greatest threat to him would end up with the least competent Stromtroopers. Tarkin was very dangerous and so wound up with a bunch of goons (and Vader keeping tabs on him).
Hmm, come to think of it, maybe Palaptine arranged for Death Star plans to fall into rebel hands so he could eliminate Tarkin and the Death Star itself (the station would be a major threat). That would certainly explain why the station had that fatal design flaw. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Death Stars |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Hmm, come to think of it, maybe Palpatine arranged for Death Star plans to fall into rebel hands so he could eliminate Tarkin and the Death Star itself (the station would be a major threat). That would certainly explain why the station had that fatal design flaw. |
That's an interesting interpretation, but I feel it is clear that the purpose of the Death Star was to serve as a deterrent to rebellion. I don't think that "Fear will keep the local systems in line, fear of this battle station" is just something Trakin was lead to believe. It make sense. One planet had to be destroyed and the rest would cower in submission. Rebellions against Imperial authority would be risking the lives of billions of innocents. Now I have always felt that one reason that Vader wasn't given command of the Death Star is to not give him too much power. Being the Sith apprentice and having the Death Star would just make Vader too powerful and it could be used against Palpatine. I'm sure that Palpatine even had to install command codes that ensured that if Vader killed Tarkin and tried to take command of the Death Star that control would revert to Palpatine on Coruscant.
As far as the design flaw, overconfidence is a typical weakness of Star Wars villains. "The Empire doesn't consider a small, one-man fighter to be a threat, or they'd have a tighter defense."
After the first Death Star's destruction, I think it is clear that Palpatine had to take the Alliance more seriously and so devised the trap using the incomplete second Death Star as bait, which worked. But the first Death Star being made just to be destroyed and to eliminate Tarkin? That's absurd. I think Palpatine could have saved the trillions credits of secretly-funneled funds and just called Tarkin into his office and Force-choked him if he was a threat.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Stormtrooper clones & recruits |
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| atgxtg wrote: | It's probably not all that stupid either, considering that during the time of the Empire there is no major power that rivals the Empire, and the Stormtroopers don't have to be as effcient, and can just be more a symbol of strength.
I can even see Palpatine pulling strings so that those commanders who could potentially be the greatest threat to him would end up with the least competent Stromtroopers. Tarkin was very dangerous and so wound up with a bunch of goons (and Vader keeping tabs on him). |
That all seems reasonable.
| atgxtg wrote: | | THe recurits might have been a means of keeping the Jango clones in check. They did (thanks to surprise and secret preprogramming) wipe out the Jedi and left the Repulic open to being overthrown. Palpatine was probably worried that the same tactic (vai Order 65) could have been used against him. Adding the recruits would help to prvent that from happening. |
According to the EU, those contingency orders were specific to the Grand Army of the Republic during the Clone Wars. With the end of the Clone Wars came the end of the Republic. I think it would be utterly idiotic of Palpatine to leave anything even remotely like Order 65 in place upon the start of his Empire. In the film, the Clonetrooper commanders didn't even blink when a non-Chancellor, Sith-dressed (and melty-faced) Palpatine holo-image popped up and said, "Execute Order 66". They even replied with the non-Chancellor, Sith/Emperor-appropriate response, "Yes, my lord." Obviously Order 66 also included the transition to the clones having to refer to Palpatine as "my lord" which they couldn't have done during the Republic without giving away the Chancellor. And obviously it was deeply ingrained into the clone troopers to recognize Palpatine as their supreme commander over all other authorities, because the Empire was planned all along (and the clones would have to transition to being an Imperial force). So I think Order 66 being used would come with some transitional programming that would immediately invalidate some of the other Republic-based contingency orders such as Order 65, which seems like it was only there for the Senate and Jedi's peace of mind during the war, until Order 66 changed things and turned the clones against them. I think Palpatine would have taken every step to ensure clone loyalty in the Empire.
But if you're saying that the mere fact that clones are so programmable in the first place leaves it open for someone ambitious enough to RE-program the clones against Palpatine, that is probably what the EU story was going for. But even then, my understanding is that it was a separate force of clones developed by the Kaminoans in secret from the Empire so were never ingrained with the Palpatine loyalty. There is a big difference from making clones that were never loyal to Palpatine in the first place to somehow turning clones that always were against him.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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I just want to say that I'm great enjoying this thread. It reminds me of the summer days in the late 70s, when my friends and I would spend countless (probably hundreds) of hours discussing all things Star Wars. 
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Whill
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | I just want to say that I'm great enjoying this thread. It reminds me of the summer days in the late 70s, when my friends and I would spend countless (probably hundreds) of hours discussing all things Star Wars. |
That time was the beginning of my elementary school days. I did have one friend my age who was a genius with a college reading level and I remember having a few discussions about Star Wars with him and an older friend. But in that time there was a lot more of my brother and I playing with action figures, and chasing each other around the house yelling, "Ch-chew! Ch-chew!" (and driving our mom nuts).
Regarding the Soldiers of the Empire! article originally from 1978 (but I didn't get until republished in the 80s) which first revealed that stormtroopers were clones, I keep saying I should scan it and share it because so many people don't believe me that stormtroopers were described as clones back in 1978 and again in the early 80s. Things like that and the dreaded M-word (first appearing in a 1977 interview) that just didn't make into the films until the prequels seem contrary to their Star Wars worldview that everything Lucas came up with before 1997 is good, and therefore everything they don't like about the prequels must be new or significantly revised concepts.
In a 1977 interview, Lucas also described that before Empire back in the time of the Republic, C-3PO had been (and I quote) "totally reassembled by a young boy working for a junk dealer." Really! 1977! I don't make any of this stuff up, but Lucas has been so villainized by some prequel-bashers that they just can't accept the facts sometimes. "No! That's not true! That's impossible! Noooo!" Imposing a real-world time division between all that is good and bad in Star Wars is a completely self-limiting and unnecessary restriction. Every fan should feel free to like or dislike whatever they want about Star Wars regardless of when the concept first originated.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:04 am Post subject: |
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LUcas has said a lot of things. The problem is that some of them contradict other things. For instance:
- Lucas has originally planned for the OT to be the middle part of the epic story, about Luke.
-Later, after being "burned out" doing ROTJ, he claimed that the OT was the end of the epic.
-While working on the prequels, Lucas claimed that the epic story was about Anakin (now the "Chosen One"), and was a 6 part story.
And now we are back to the OT being the middle part again.
He keeps changing his mind about things. Now I'm fine with that up to a point, but once the film comes out and he has chosen a direction, I wish'd he'd stick with it. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Death Stars |
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| Whill wrote: |
That's an interesting interpretation, but I feel it is clear that the purpose of the Death Star was to serve as a deterrent to rebellion. |
I don't agree. Since we now know that the Death Star was a Separist weapon, then it's orginal purpose was probably to get the Republic to stand down.
Except that we know that Palpatine was pulling the strings, so it was never going to be used that way. Unless...the war went in an unexpected direction and Plapy was forced to switch to the CIS. I believe that is what Dooku was expecting.
I don't think the Death Star is/was a good deterrent against rebellion. Far from it. It's more likely to cause it. You end up killing off a lot of loyal subject going after a handful of rebels.
I think the Death Star is a good deterrent against civil war, not rebellion. The two might seem the same, but my point is that I think the Death Stars prevents the sort of whole scale open warfare that we see in the Clone Wars. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Stormtrooper clones & recruits |
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| Whill wrote: |
But if you're saying that the mere fact that clones are so programmable in the first place leaves it open for someone ambitious enough to RE-program the clones against Palpatine, that is probably what the EU story was going for. But even then, my understanding is that it was a separate force of clones developed by the Kaminoans in secret from the Empire so were never ingrained with the Palpatine loyalty. There is a big difference from making clones that were never loyal to Palpatine in the first place to somehow turning clones that always were against him. |
What I mean is that since the clones were programmable-and to the point where they caught the Jedi by surprise simply because they were following orders with no malice, and little thought-the same trick could be pulled against Palpatine. As the architect of the overthrow of the Republic he'd want to make sure the same trick couldn't be used against him.
I also think that the close bonds of brotherhood and loyalty between the Jango clones was something that Palpatine would want to undermine, much like the way he handed advisors. Adding different gene pools to the clone mix would fragment the clones into different power blocks, that would be more loyal to him than to each other.
One of the interesting little perks of the Jedi coup, is that, as the Jedi were the leaders for the clones, killing off the Jedi also eliminated the threat of the clones developing a stronger loyalty for their general than to the Republic/Empire. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Death Stars |
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| atgxtg wrote: | Since we now know that the Death Star was a Separist weapon, then it's orginal purpose was probably to get the Republic to stand down.
Except that we know that Palpatine was pulling the strings, so it was never going to be used that way. |
Yes, the Death Star was never intended to be used against the Republic. The Separatist movement was an large scale open conflict against the Republic, but Darth Sidious was insidiously working to take over the Republic from within. The very same moment the Death Star plans were first shown on the screen in the film, Dooku tells the Poggle that he will take the plans to his master. The Separatist leaders such Poggle, Nute Gunray and General Grievous were even aware that Darth Sidious was the true master of the Separatist, and we all know who Sidious really was and how he actually took over. The Geonosians were pawns in Palpatine's plan like everyone else. They are weapons designers and they served Palpatine's plan to get a super weapon for his own purposes.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Unless...the war went in an unexpected direction and Plapy was forced to switch to the CIS. I believe that is what Dooku was expecting. |
If Dooku was expecting that, it was only because Palpatine lead him to believe that. Dooku obviously wasn't in on the the real plan of Anakin killing Dooku and taking his place as the next Sith sidekick.
| atgxtg wrote: | | I don't think the Death Star is/was a good deterrent against rebellion. Far from it. It's more likely to cause it. You end up killing off a lot of loyal subject going after a handful of rebels. |
We're talking about an entire galaxy here. Alderaan wasn't an entire planet of Rebels, but the Empire had no qualms about destroying the planet to make a point to the rest of the galaxy. The Empire destroyed millions of loyal subjects along with a handful of Rebels, but really it was done as a demonstration to the rest of the Empire. You may not run the Empire that way if you were the Emperor, but Palpatine did. We're not talking about what you would do if you had a Death Star (at least I'm not!  )
| atgxtg wrote: | | I think the Death Star is a good deterrent against civil war, not rebellion. The two might seem the same, but my point is that I think the Death Stars prevents the sort of whole scale open warfare that we see in the Clone Wars. |
"It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from their hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil galactic Empire." And the small internal rebellions can escalate into large scale open civil wars. At the time of the Death Star's completion, the the last large scale open war in the galaxy had only ended 19 years earlier. Palpatine needed the last civil war to turn the Republic into the Empire. Now that he had the Empire, he did not need another civil war.
| Quote: | MAS AMEDDA: Senator Organa . . . the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic requests your presence at a special session of Congress.
...
BAIL ORGANA: It could be a trap.
OBI-WAN: No, I don't think so. The Chancellor will not be able to control the thousands of star systems without keeping the Senate intact. |
Obi-Wan didn't know about the existence of the Death Star until 19 years later when it became fully operational. | Quote: | TARKIN: The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away.
TAGGE: That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?
TARKIN: Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.
TAGGE: And what of the Rebellion? If the Rebels have obtained a complete technical readout of this station, it is possible, however unlikely, that they might find a weakness and exploit it.
VADER: The plans you refer to will soon be back in our hands.
MOTTI: Any attack made by the Rebels against this station would be a useless gesture, no matter what technical data they've obtained. This station is now the ultimate power in the universe. I suggest we use it! |
| Quote: | | TARKIN: It is time we demonstrate the full power of this station. (To soldier) Set your course for Alderaan. |
| Quote: | TARKIN: Princess Leia, before your execution I would like you to be my guest at a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
LEIA: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
TARKIN: Not after we demonstrate the power of this station. In a way, you have determined the choice of the planet that'll be destroyed first. Since you are reluctant to provide us with the location of the Rebel base, I have chosen to test this station's destructive power... on your home planet of Alderaan.
LEIA: No! Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons. You can't possibly...
TARKIN: You would prefer another target? A military target? Then name the system! I grow tired of asking this. So it'll be the last time. Where is the Rebel base?
LEIA: Dantooine. They're on Dantooine.
TARKIN: There. You see Lord Vader, she can be reasonable. (addressing Motti) Continue with the operation. You may fire when ready.
LEIA: What?
TARKIN: You're far too trusting. Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration. But don't worry. We will deal with your Rebel friends soon enough. |
The proof is in the pudding. It is extremely obvious from the films that Lucas felt the Death Star was meant by Palpatine to be a deterrent to any level of rebellion against his authority.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Stormtrooper clones & recruits |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Whill wrote: |
But if you're saying that the mere fact that clones are so programmable in the first place leaves it open for someone ambitious enough to RE-program the clones against Palpatine, that is probably what the EU story was going for. But even then, my understanding is that it was a separate force of clones developed by the Kaminoans in secret from the Empire so were never ingrained with the Palpatine loyalty. There is a big difference from making clones that were never loyal to Palpatine in the first place to somehow turning clones that always were against him. |
What I mean is that since the clones were programmable-and to the point where they caught the Jedi by surprise simply because they were following orders with no malice, and little thought-the same trick could be pulled against Palpatine. As the architect of the overthrow of the Republic he'd want to make sure the same trick couldn't be used against him. |
I agree that Palpatine would want to make sure that trick couldn't be used against him, and he did. In the EU, the Kaminoan insurrection happened as a result of a group of Kaminoans (not happy with Imperial occupation at the beginning of the Empire) taking a batch of Fett clones (who were still physically children at the time) and developing them discreetly into clonetroopers without Imperial loyalty, and then the uprising didn't actually occur until many years later when the clones were grown. No one can just flick a switch and make existing Imperial clone stormtroopers suddenly betray Palpatine.
| atgxtg wrote: | | I also think that the close bonds of brotherhood and loyalty between the Jango clones was something that Palpatine would want to undermine, much like the way he handed advisors. Adding different gene pools to the clone mix would fragment the clones into different power blocks, that would be more loyal to him than to each other. |
Agreed. The last Fett-clones were born at the beginning of the Clone Wars about 22 years before ANH, so with accelerated aging, the very youngest Fett-clones would have the physical age of 44 at the time of ANH. There wouldn't be a large mass of them left in service by ANH. And Lucas's explanation for the stormtroopers having different heights, voices and abilities in the classic trilogy is a result of the Empire using many different clones sponsors to make clones and mixing the genetic types together into the same units. That makes sense. They could all still be clones, but still be different to each other within each unit. It does make sense that Palpatine would inert non-clone Imperial officers into the upper command structure of the stormtrooper corps to maintain control, but the topic of discussion was clones and recruits into the lower ranks of the stormtrooper corps.
So it would be desirable for the stormtrooper ranks to be all clones that were raised from birth specifically to be stormtroopers and brainwashed into being completely loyal to the Empire and Palpatine, as opposed to recruits that didn't join the ranks until later. But with having many different genetic templates within the stormtrooper ranks, you can still have heterogeneous units of clones.
| atgxtg wrote: | | One of the interesting little perks of the Jedi coup, is that, as the Jedi were the leaders for the clones, killing off the Jedi also eliminated the threat of the clones developing a stronger loyalty for their general than to the Republic/Empire. |
True.
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Last edited by Whill on Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Death Stars |
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| Whill wrote: |
If Dooku was expecting that, it was only because Palpatine lead him to believe that. Dooku obviously wasn't in on the the real plan of Anakin killing Dooku and taking his place as the next Sith sidekick. |
Of couse. Dooku expected to be on the winning side. I believe off screen materila suggests that the whole kidnap plot in Episode 3 was "supposed" to get the Repulbic to surrender.
But, what I mean about the Death Star is that, had things gone wrong for Palpatine - being found out too early for instance - the Death Star would have allowed him to try and win the war for the CIS as Darth Sidious.
| Whill wrote: |
The proof is in the pudding. It is extremely obvious from the films that Lucas felt the Death Star was meant by Palpatine to be a deterrent to any level of rebellion against his authority. |
No it isn't. You quotes and example show that Tarkin felt that the Death Star was a good deterrent against rebellion. Even the attack on Aalderaan was Tarken's decision. Vader's comment on the Death Star seems to imply that he isn't that impressed with it.
Palpatine's thinking and plans are a lot harder to pin down. In ROTJ he doesn't use the second Death Star as a deterrent at all. He uses it as a trap. |
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