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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14214
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | *Stormtroopers aren't the only Imperial bad guy, there are the Naval and Army Troopers. Compared to these Imperial Regulars, Stormtroopers are a notch above. For beginning characters, I have them face Naval or Army troopers first, with a few sparse Stormtrooper "boss" encounters. |
Looking at the BASE book stats though it would seem like regular army/navy troopers are more skilled than stormies though.
| Quote: | Dexterity 3D, blaster 4D+1, dodge 4D+1, grenade 3D+2, vehicle blasters 3D+2, Knowledge 1D+1, survival 2D+1, Mechanical 1D+1, repulsorlift operation 2D+1, Perception 2D, Strength 3D+1, brawling 4D+1, Technical ID.
Move: 10. Blaster rifle (5D), field armor and helmet (+1D physical, +2 energy), grenades (5D), helmet comlink, survival gear, utility belt with supplies. |
So army Troopers have a lower Know/Mech and Tech (1d base for tech and 1d+1 for both tech and mech) but a higher Dex (3d) and Str (3d+1).
Their CP expenditure (like i counted out for Stormies) equates to them having earned
DEX - 13cp each for the blaster and dodge at 4d+1, 6cp each to get the vehicle and grenade skills
STR - 10cp for their brawl skill.
KNOW - 4cp for their survival
MECH - 4cp for their repulsorlift operations.
All told, 56CP.
Admittedly that's only 5CP more than the Stormie.
| Quote: | Dexterity 2D+1, blaster 3D+1, blaster: blaster rifle 4D+2, brawling parry 3D+1, dodge 3D+], grenade 3D+1, melee combat 3D+1, melee parry 3D+1, running3D+2, Knowledge 1D+1, intimidation 2D+1, streetwise 2D+1, Mechanical 1D+2, repulsorlift operation 2D+2, capital
ship shields 2D+2, Perception 3D, command 4D, search 4D, Strength 2D+2, brawling 4D+2, stamina 3D+2, Technical ID, security 2D.
Move: 10. Blast helmet (+1D to physical, +1 energy), blaster pistol (4D), comlink |
For the Naval trooper, they are a lot more CP there.
Dex - 7cp for blaster, brawl parry, dodge, grenade, melee combat and melee parry (42cp right there) + 10cp for running, and a further 8cp for their blaster rifle specialization).
Know they get 8cp more for the 2 skills.
Mech they add a further 12cp
Per they add another 18cp,
Str adds a further 27cp, for a grand total of 125cp total. Well over 2 times what either the army trooper or Storm trooper has.
Yes their armor is not as impressive.. I also laugh that they get a blaster rifle specialization but only carry a pistol.
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TheDoctor
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 150
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | | *Stormtroopers aren't the only Imperial bad guy, there are the Naval and Army Troopers. Compared to these Imperial Regulars, Stormtroopers are a notch above. For beginning characters, I have them face Naval or Army troopers first, with a few sparse Stormtrooper "boss" encounters. |
Looking at the BASE book stats though it would seem like regular army/navy troopers are more skilled than stormies though.
| Quote: | Dexterity 3D, blaster 4D+1, dodge 4D+1, grenade 3D+2, vehicle blasters 3D+2, Knowledge 1D+1, survival 2D+1, Mechanical 1D+1, repulsorlift operation 2D+1, Perception 2D, Strength 3D+1, brawling 4D+1, Technical ID.
Move: 10. Blaster rifle (5D), field armor and helmet (+1D physical, +2 energy), grenades (5D), helmet comlink, survival gear, utility belt with supplies. |
So army Troopers have a lower Know/Mech and Tech (1d base for tech and 1d+1 for both tech and mech) but a higher Dex (3d) and Str (3d+1).
Their CP expenditure (like i counted out for Stormies) equates to them having earned
DEX - 13cp each for the blaster and dodge at 4d+1, 6cp each to get the vehicle and grenade skills
STR - 10cp for their brawl skill.
KNOW - 4cp for their survival
MECH - 4cp for their repulsorlift operations.
All told, 56CP.
Admittedly that's only 5CP more than the Stormie.
| Quote: | Dexterity 2D+1, blaster 3D+1, blaster: blaster rifle 4D+2, brawling parry 3D+1, dodge 3D+], grenade 3D+1, melee combat 3D+1, melee parry 3D+1, running3D+2, Knowledge 1D+1, intimidation 2D+1, streetwise 2D+1, Mechanical 1D+2, repulsorlift operation 2D+2, capital
ship shields 2D+2, Perception 3D, command 4D, search 4D, Strength 2D+2, brawling 4D+2, stamina 3D+2, Technical ID, security 2D.
Move: 10. Blast helmet (+1D to physical, +1 energy), blaster pistol (4D), comlink |
For the Naval trooper, they are a lot more CP there.
Dex - 7cp for blaster, brawl parry, dodge, grenade, melee combat and melee parry (42cp right there) + 10cp for running, and a further 8cp for their blaster rifle specialization).
Know they get 8cp more for the 2 skills.
Mech they add a further 12cp
Per they add another 18cp,
Str adds a further 27cp, for a grand total of 125cp total. Well over 2 times what either the army trooper or Storm trooper has.
Yes their armor is not as impressive.. I also laugh that they get a blaster rifle specialization but only carry a pistol. |
Admittedly I haven't looked at the stats in a while. I tend to run Naval Troopers with a lower Blaster Skill.
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ZepDek
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I tend to run storm troopers as a varied lot. Where on their own they are decent combatants but not terribly creative, but in the hands of a superior their abilities can drastically change. An inept one would have them stand in single file and just fire at what ever, where a competent and cunning one would have the troopers make use of cover (never really seems to get used to much in games from what I've seen), combined firing, and other tactics. I more state this is from the commander training them to fit his needs and tactics rather than the commander shouting orders into the com. As amusing as it would be to picture Thrawn personally barking orders to his troopers. |
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Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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It seems like a majority of those posting here either go for the elite view, or have adopted a tiered system with different levels of dangerousness. I like the latter view a great deal, however, I'd like to open up the debate around a trio of notions:
First, I think the psychology is left out of this discussion. We all focus on skill a lot. combat skill is surely important, but I think we should also consider that elusive quality: fighting spirit. Traditionally, contests between combat units have been less about who can kill more of the other, and more about which warriors were less likely to break and flee. What Obi-Wan says about the character of stormtroopers is one thing (gullible, unimaginative), but there's another side to that coin. Their dogmatism probably means that they don't think too hard about the personal danger they're in, and as a result, they're much more likely to fight to the death, which normal soldiers will not do to the same degree. So, I don't think the stats fully capture the danger that stormtroopers pose. Also, I imagine that many GMs let their baddies fight to the death too easily, as if these aren't beings with powerful instincts of self-preservation.
Second, I like the tiered system that a number of you introduce. It means that when facing stormtroopers, their opponents don't necessarily know what they're going to get. Sure, they might be facing incompetent thugs in white armor, but they might also be facing Vader's finest.
Third, while I like the notion of stormtroopers being rare, I think we should also recognize that they're not treated that way in much of the literature. For example, they even serve the function of bolstering Imperial Customs. That's something that I have a hard time swallowing, but I can't get around that it's clearly the case in the literature. Also, I do think that it's important for GMs to use a great deal of familiar imagery from the movies. Stormtroopers are such a feature from the movies, that in order to capture the 'feel' of the movies, we shouldn't be shy about using stormtroopers liberally. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14214
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Good points all.. Many modules do seem to show Stormies being assigned to customs duty (which is why when i write my own modules for our group i also do that), and also even do planetary security.
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The Brain
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: |
Third, while I like the notion of stormtroopers being rare, I think we should also recognize that they're not treated that way in much of the literature. For example, they even serve the function of bolstering Imperial Customs. That's something that I have a hard time swallowing, but I can't get around that it's clearly the case in the literature. Also, I do think that it's important for GMs to use a great deal of familiar imagery from the movies. Stormtroopers are such a feature from the movies, that in order to capture the 'feel' of the movies, we shouldn't be shy about using stormtroopers liberally. |
You have to remember though that STs are used by the Empire one of its ubiquitous symbols, so they are deployed everywhere. Furthermore they're not just a tool of intimidation against the average Imperial subject, but also to other Imperial personnel. A military force that bypasses the normal traditions and chain of command of the military (ya, ya Lucas botched that up with the prequals) and owes personal loyalty directly to the emperor. If you remember in multiple accounts of Imperial military units going over to the Rebellion one of the first things they have to do is figure out how to neutralize the local storm trooper detachment e.g. the Far Orbit Sourcebook . I don't see it as a big leap that other paramilitary agencies in the Empire have these reminders of the emperor's reach assigned to them as well. |
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Zarm R'keeg
Commander
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Location: PA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Davin Felth, Whill.  Defnitely not just post-ROTJ...
...And definitely not all clones. In 'my universe,' none of them are (Lucas says they're all clones, the EU says they're recruits... neither are stated in the movies, so I'm going with what I grew up on. Besides, if what Lucas says is cannon, then Yoda isn't a Jedi and the Emperor needed to be defeated so Yoda and Obi-wan could physically respawn... he said so in 1983).
Additionally, I just don't buy based on performance, voice, attitude, or variance that they are anything but recruits, with the same variable skill-levels you'd see there, not standardized clone flash-training.
I tend to run them as straight-up minions; to my mind, they are the average grunt, the lowest common denominator. If this was chess, they'd be pawns. As such, I generally just have them dodge and fire ('standard bad guy 101'), neglecting more advanced tactics or other weaponry unless PCs prove a threat, a specific leader is there directing them, or the scenario suggests tactics that they would be using them.
To me, they're a a bit obnoxious- thanks to their armor, as TheDoctor mentioned, they're most typically wounded and very slow to polish off- but not skilled enough to prevent a mjaor threat. They are nuisance foot-soldiers for my players- obstacles more than anything. Specific officers with field training, dark jedi, and other individuals of note are the bigger challenges. I guess, video-game style, Stormtroopers are the average dozens-in-the-level bad guys, while other characters are the boss. I think this reflects them in the movies fairly accurately.
That said, my parties have largely been Bulletproof Wookies and Matrix-dodgers, so my current party of more moderate semi-combatants may find them far more challenging; and, in hopes of more realism, I intend to pay a little more attention to their tactics. So, we'll see if they're so un-noteworthy this time around...
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10436
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Besides, if what Lucas says is cannon, then Yoda isn't a Jedi and the Emperor needed to be defeated so Yoda and Obi-wan could physically respawn... he said so in 1983). |
The wink means you're kidding, right? | The Empire Strikes Back wrote: | | BEN: There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me. |
The Classic Trilogy started as one film, but after a certain point in its development, it's three acts were expanded into three films. The first act ended with the rescue of the princess from the Death Star, but Lucas really wanted to include his final battle so he took it from the end of the third act and added it to the end first film. The second act had included an extended Jedi training sequence of Obi-Wan live-training Luke, which means Obi-Wan was originally going to survive the rescue of the princess. But Luke (and Han) had to be the heroes of the battle, and Lucas didn't think it would be right for such an important character to be standing around back at the Rebel base during the battle, so Lucas rewrote the script so that Obi-Wan was killed. Since Lucas didn't think it would be cool to have Luke's Jedi training to come from a ghost in the second episode, Yoda was newly invented to take Obi-Wan's place. Yoda was never not a Jedi, and in TESB Obi-Wan's ghost tells Luke that Yoda is a Jedi. I'd be really interested in knowing what source you have for Lucas ever saying that Yoda was not a Jedi (which would be in direct contradiction with the film itself).
By stating "physically respawn" (sic), you seem to be refering to Lucas's idea at one point of Obi-Wan returning in the flesh to aid Luke in his final battle with the Emperor and Vader in RotJ (down in an underground throne room with hot lava going through it no less). RotJ was released in 1983 and production (principle photography) was completed in 1982. The idea of a physical resurrection was definitely abandoned before the 1982 production of RotJ, but I'll bet it was even before 1982. So you are definitely off with the year, and it doesn't matter anyway because the 'Obi-Wan returning in the flesh' idea was abandoned.
And no one ever referred to what Lucas says being Star Wars being "canon" anyway. Continuity that was explicit in the films was G-canon, and things that are not in the films but are a part of the EU were C-canon. Things Lucas says about the films that aren't explicit in the films may or may not be canon. Regardless of canonicity, I agree with some things Lucas says about the films, but I don't agree with other things (like Vader's empty suit). I was talking about my personal SWU, not canon.
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Last edited by Whill on Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | Defnitely not just post-ROTJ...
...And definitely not all clones. In 'my universe,' none of them are (Lucas says they're all clones, the EU says they're recruits... neither are stated in the movies. |
Actually, the EU says that after AotC, new clones began to be grown that were based on different genetic sponsors, just like Lucas had said (but of course none of them would be old enough to serve until after 9 or 10 years later (in between trilogies). For the sake of discussion, that is C-canon. The EU also says that by the time of ANH, clones still comprised 1/3 of the Stormtrooper Core, so the EU does not say that they were only recruits. The EU says stormtroopers were both recruits and clones in the time of the classic trilogy. But of course, I encourage all GMs to have the Empire's stormtrooper corp be whatever they want it to you be in their universe.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Davin Felth, Whill. |
He is a good example of why I feel recruits would be bad for the stormtrooper corp. Being repulsed by the atrocities the Empire does (like slow roasting the flesh off of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru while leaving their skeletons in tact), Davin Felth killed his own commander and went rouge. Not something the Empire would want.
According to even the EU, clone stormtroopers were genetically modified to suppress their individuality with unquestioning loyalty. That makes sense. The growth acceleration would also give less time for independent free thought but would be enough time for the clones to be taught only what they needed to be taught. The clones were specifically designed with respect to the stormtrooper indoctrination program, that would logically not be as effective on recruits of various backgrounds who weren't raised from "birth" to specifically to be stormtroopers.
But then again, the Empire probably did lose a huge number of stormtroopers all at once when the Death Star was destroyed, and after that the flame of the Rebellion spread throughout the galaxy, so maybe that would be the point they would start accepting recruits to maintain their massive numerical superiority.
Phineas and Ferb: Star Wars
Stormtrooper 4: Look, sir, droids!
C.O.: No, this is a bathtub stopper.
...
Stormtrooper 5: Look sir, a magic flute!
C.O.: (puts his head in hand) No, that's a stick!
...
(Cut to Stormtrooper Candace. Stormtroopers Buford and Baljeet slip up behind her.)
Buford: Hey, Candace, what's up?
Candace: Um, I was just thinking, we're the good guys, right?
Baljeet: Yes, I believe so.
Buford: That's what they told us durin' the brainwashin'.
Baljeet: Orientation, Buford!
Buford: Potato, tomato.
Candace: And Rebels are bad. We know that.
Baljeet: Of course. The Rebels are always the bad guys.
Buford: What about Robin Hood?
Baljeet: That has not happened yet!
Candace: Well, one of the Rebels just saved my life. He could've escaped, but, instead, he came back to help me.
Buford and Baljeet: Hmmmm...
(beat)
Candace: And didn't we just blow up a planet?
Baljeet: Hmm, yes, that is sort of difficult to justify...morally.
8)
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Last edited by Whill on Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zarn
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Dromdarr_Alark
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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There's also the great discussion about general contractors on the Death Star in Clerks. 
@Whill: I don't think I know anything about the "empty suit". Can you explain what that is?
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:03 am Post subject: re: the empty suit |
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The "empty suit" refers to Anakin/Vader's funeral pyre at the end of RotJ.
The film saga has 4 characters that become Force Ghosts: Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin. We know for certain that Qui-Gon's body did not fade away because there was a funeral pyre. So obviously, the body disappearing is not absolutely required to becomes a Force Ghost. Lucas said the reason that the two classic Jedi Master bodies disappeared because they learned/developed a more powerful version of the same power that Qui-Gon had used. (It did take over 10 years for the ghost of Qui-Gon to even begin to communicate with Yoda, when Obi-Wan was immediately able to "talk" to Luke.) When asked how Anakin could have even learned that power at all, Lucas said that the ghosts of Obi-Wan and Yoda "helped" Anakin become a Force Ghost when he died. Even in Lucas' final revision for the RotJ blu-ray, it does not show Anakin's body physically disappearing when he died like Obi-Wan's and Yoda's did when they died, but Lucas said that Anakin's body had disappeared just offscreen, which meant that his funeral pyre was just Vader's "empty suit".
I think Lucas was just going for the "empty tomb" analogy to reinforce his suggestion of Anakin being the Chosen One of the prequel prophecy. I feel it is more fitting that Vader's body is there in the suit being burned. It has a better sense of symmetry with TPM which had Qui-Gon's physical body being burned. And there is still a mythological aspect to that, like the funeral pyres of multiple pagan cultures which burn away the mortality of the deceased hero, freeing the immortal soul from its physical confines.
So I disagree with Lucas about that. In my SWU, Anakin's body did not fade. Luke saved it from the death star to give his father's remains a hero's funeral. I also have alternate explanations for how Obi-Wan's and Yoda's bodies disappeared when Qui-Gon's hadn't, and for how Anakin had learned to become a Force Ghost despite the power to do so being based on love and therefore being beyond what is possible for Sith on the Dark Side.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the explanation, Whill. 8)
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Zarm R'keeg
Commander
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: re: the empty suit |
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| Whill wrote: | The wink means you're kidding, right? | The Empire Strikes Back wrote: | | BEN: There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me. |
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Means tongue-in-cheek.  As for the Yoda stuff- nope, this is documented as Lucas' specific direction to Marqand during ROTJ pre-production (as documented in the recent Making of ROTJ coffee table book). He explained 'Jedi Master' as meaning 'Master of Jedis who is a teacher but not a Jedi himself' rather than 'Master who is a Jedi'- along with the yoga ('Anyone can learn the Force if they take the time and discipline to do it') Force analogy.
All of which is just to evidence that- like the number of films that Star Wars was 'always meant to be' in various interviews- George changes his mind. Which is fine... but to me, it means that talk of 'George's vision' is nonsense- after all, it's continually changed and been revised... and if we want to get technical, wasn't 'George's Vision' basically Annikin Starkiller and General Skywalker defending Aquilae, with everything after that as a corruption of it? (And really, the idea of a 'master vision' to which future things must be true or false discounts the entire creative process- as you point out, a respawning Obi-wan (and yes, I got the year wrong) was considered, then discarded. That's how creativity works- and it precludes a single 'master idea' in the first place, because every creation is constantly evolving.)
It's a long way of saying that to me, none of what 'Lucas says about the films that aren't explicit in the films' is worth consideration, because it's based on an ever-changing, oft-conflicting-with-his-own-past-films 'vision'; an unreliable one. Certainly, they're interesting notations on what was in his head at any given time... but as actual effects on the Star Wars universe, I (personally) give them far less weight than anything established by the EU or other published/license materials.
| Whill wrote: | | The EU also says that by the time of ANH, clones still comprised 1/3 of the Stormtrooper Core, so the EU does not say that they were only recruits |
I did not recall that. Interesting. I stand corrected.
I'm gonna stick with the belief that the ones we saw in ANH and ROTJ were primarily recruits, though... I see no evidence of clone-like training or discipline.
| Whill wrote: | | I also have alternate explanations for how Obi-Wan's and Yoda's bodies disappeared when Qui-Gon's hadn't, and for how Anakin had learned to become a Force Ghost despite the power to do so being based on love and therefore being beyond what is possible for Sith on the Dark Side. |
Of course, being the OT/EU-lovin' maverick that I am, I reject the notion that all Jedi don't simply become Force Ghosts (though in the new canon, that would seem to be the case). But I do agree with you on the 'empty suit' issue... and I am very curious to hear your alternate explanations, if you'd care to share them.
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