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Zarm R'keeg
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 Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
You should be pleased to know that Disney is paying for conventional effects and minimizing the use of CG as much as possible in the sequel trilogy. They are actively striving to win back prequel-detractors. FYI. |
I had heard, yes. And am quite excited about it.  (I'm not actually anti-CG. I'm just anti-CG-that-calls-attention-to-itself, which under Lucas' hands, it usually does. To me, some CG can also lack reality; no matter how advanced it gets, the eye can always tell its seeing something that didn't really exist in that physical space. But on the other hand, some CG can accomplish things practical effects just can't. To me, the ideal blend is a little of both- getting the reality of a practical, physical object whenever it is available- especially for organic things or objects in bright daylight- and using CGI to supplement whatever those physical models can't achieve, or environments they can't be placed in. CGI and practical effects together achieve far more than either of them by themselves- just look at Jurassic Park!)
| Whill wrote: | | Continuity is much more important me than it ever was to the EU. That's why the EU has always ever been an a la cart menu with respect to my personal Star Wars universe. |
Interesting. Well, either I wasn't paying enough attention or came into things after enough ret-cons had already been applied, as I was never really aware of major contradictions. (At least, ones that didn't exist before the prequels came to be; for such conflicts, I hardly blame the EU that was written before the films came to exist!  ). If I was more aware of such contradictions, I'd probably be a little less attached.
Truthfully, I have sometimes said that as much as I treasure the EU, as long as they just kept the Thrawn Trilogy, the X-wing books (heck, as long as it was just the Wraith Squadron books!), and ideally the WEG and Kyle Katarn materials... I'd be happy. If Disney preserved those and dropped everything else, I'd probably be doing a complete 180. For me, I do 'value' the whole EU... but in the materials I'm truly passionate about, there is also some picking and choosing.
| Whill wrote: |
No, I don't think they are saying that, and I'm going to have to ask for citation. |
To clarify... no, I don't think they are literally making that statement. Rather, by creating an alternate, conflicting and 'official' timeline to overwrite the characters, events, and storylines of the EU, I believe that will be the effect. The unintentional message, if you will. When you create a replacement and discontinue the original, that usually sends the message- overt statement or not- of 'ignore the old one, it doesn't count anymore; the new one is what you should be paying attention to.'
And again- we probably have differing opinions on how much the EU is really going to be the 'basis' for the new product. From everything I've seen, the new product is going to borrow the elements, names, and concepts it likes, and so it may be based on the EU in the same way that an originally-written RPG adventure is base don the WEG system by using stats from the sourcebooks... but the stories and characters and setup of the universe, more than mere stats, I don't think are going to be reflected in the new product at all. (Though I'd love to be wrong!)
| Whill wrote: | Yes, that makes it very clear. You and a whole lot of other EU fans are jilted lovers.
EU's new step-dad Mr. Disney said, "You can't date my daughter anymore. She's just too complicated. I'll print some new copies of old pictures to remember her by, but that's it. You'll have your memories, but you won't see EU anymore in the future. But here is EU's younger sister Story-Canon that you are free to date."
Whill said, "It is better to have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all." |
Ha!  I never heard it put quite that way before. Pretty good picture of it.
"It is better to have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all." - is that from the Journal of Whill?
| Whill wrote: | You said, "That's trite and condescending. The only way I'll ever be happy is to keep seeing EU in the future. The memories only mean anything if we are still together and will be in the future. I've got so much invested in this relationship that I can't move on. And I barely know Story-Canon but I just know she won't be anything like her sister. I'll never love anyone like I love EU. I need her!"
Something like that. 8) |
Sorta, yeah. Heck, to mangle the metaphor... I know that I'm not getting EU back. I even understand that from Mr. Disney's perspective, this is the logical choice. There's no other decision I could've expected him to make. I would much rather EU's first dad had never left and had continued to leave her to her own devices, but since that's not the way things went, I don't expect- nor do I think it reasonable or logical- for things to have gone any other way. I'm just kinda... in mourning over how things went. I don't expect to get her back- I just haven't gotten over losing her yet.
Okay, now I think this is starting to make my fandom sound way too creepy. But you get the idea.
| Whill wrote: | You must be referring to the value you place in the existence of one single, never-ending, ever-expanding publishing canon (that can only become increasingly more impossible to maintain continuity).
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| Whill wrote: | | Before retiring to philanthropy, Lucas saw himself as an artist and business man both. The film saga was his art and also business. Of course art is subjective and you may not like all of the art (like the prequels for example) but that doesn't mean it is not art. To Lucas, the EU was always only ever about the money to support the business based on the artwork. In the franchise's continuity/canon structure firmly defined in the 90's, the EU's C-canon was placed below the films' G-canon, which included Lucas' future revisions to currently existing films, and Lucas' new films not yet released. That means Lucas was always free to contradict the EU because it was the EU's job to conform to the films, not vice versa. |
All this, I know. I just think it's required of an artist's integrity (to begin with, in this case, the EU's) to conform to what he's spinning off of. In Lucas' case, it was not his responsibility to conform to what he allowed to be spun off. Contradicting it's totally his right (even if I think he was a jerk to the fans that he milked for money to fund his products to do so, he wasn't actually doing anything 'wrong.' Just... 'not nice.') My statements on the nature of continuity were general (and more applicable to the EU) rather than directed at Lucas. For Lucas or Disney to respect the continuity of what they'd established would have been a courtesy, a kind consideration of the junkies they'd created... but never required, legally or morally. Just... 'it sure woulda been nice...'
| Whill wrote: | | The decision to not strictly adhere to EU canon in the new Story Canon is also a business decision. It frees up authors and editors to only have to conform to film and existing story book canon. And old-Time EU customers like yourself are not the only possible customers for the new products. Some newcomers to the franchise may actually feel overwhelmed by the existing mountain of continuity so prefer the reset button be pressed. It has always been and always will be impossible to make everyone happy, so all they can do is try to find the right balance to satisfy as many existing and new Star Wars fans as possible. |
Yep. I do agree. As I said, I didn't and don't expect otherwise- just wish, in many ways, that it weren't so. My feeling son the Legends stuff are much more 'stages of grief' than 'logical argument of why it shouldn't have happened.' It's about the emotion in reaction to it, not an argument why it shouldn't have happened- because there is no such argument.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Interesting. Well, either I wasn't paying enough attention or came into things after enough ret-cons had already been applied, as I was never really aware of major contradictions. (At least, ones that didn't exist before the prequels came to be; for such conflicts, I hardly blame the EU that was written before the films came to exist! ). If I was more aware of such contradictions, I'd probably be a little less attached. |
Not to pick on your "creepy love" too much , but there were a ton of contradictions in the EU.
Let me point out just a few that struck me as a young person back in the late 70s, early 80s:
1) In Marvel's first Annual, they told some of the story in flashback. That flashback story depicted three heroes, all Jedi Knights, running around and adventuring together. Those three Jedi? One was Obi-Wan Kenobi, the second was Darth Vader (back when he was a Jedi), and the third was Luke’s father. Here’s what Wookieepedia says about it:
In this issue Aragh says that, during the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan Kenobi and two of his students saved Skye from destruction. He said one student was Darth Vader and the other he identified by saying Luke wore his lightsaber, implying it was Luke's father. As The Empire Strikes Back established that Vader was Luke's father, this implication turned out to be impossible. The discrepancy was first explained in Star Wars Gamer 1 and later expanded upon in 2007 in the article "Aliens in the Empire."
2) I still have a set of “official” Topps trading cards from The Empire Strikes Back. They show Luke as being 22 years old and Leia as being age 20.
3) I eagerly gobbled up the first-ever novel for Star Wars. It too bore the Lucasfilm stamp, and was even written by famous sci-fi author (and man who ghost wrote the novelization of ANH) Alan Dean Foster. In that book, besides there being lots of sexual tension between Luke and Leia (understandable), both characters have a fight/duel with Vader. Luke is far better with his lightsaber than he was in ESB, and even chops Vader’s arm off! Vader uses a blue-bladed lightsaber, Artoo is referred to as a “Detoo” unit, and Vader tells Luke that he had a tough time figuring out that it was Luke that had shot his TIE on the Death Star.
It’s pretty clear in retrospect that Lucas never really bothered to oversee things closely, or chose to form a group of employees to keep a tighter reign on his franchise. In fact, in Starlog #377 (August 2005), Lucas said:
“I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.”
I’m actually a big fan of Leland Chase, and am grateful for his dedication to all things Star Wars. The very concept of the Story Group is a fantastic idea, in my mind, as now somebody can finally pay attention to everything!
Also, regards the three franchises you talked about. FWIW, the Star Trek fandom for the 70s and 80s is very much alive and well, despite the creation of the new movies In fact, as a huge fan of both the old stuff and the new, I find it hard to find many fans (of the Abrams new stuff) amongst the vast Trekker fandom. There seems to be a hundred times more love for the old than there is for the new.
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Well, now, hang on a tick. If you're talking the Marvel comics aspect of it, yeah. I got that. I should probably note that when I say 'EU,' I'm generally thinking 90s Bantam. I'm certainly aware of some of the earlier product clashes- sometimes I forget that they were actually re-incorporated into the canon. So, if that's what you meant, Whill, then I get you.
| DougRed4 wrote: | | Also, regards the three franchises you talked about. FWIW, the Star Trek fandom for the 70s and 80s is very much alive and well, despite the creation of the new movies In fact, as a huge fan of both the old stuff and the new, I find it hard to find many fans (of the Abrams new stuff) amongst the vast Trekker fandom. There seems to be a hundred times more love for the old than there is for the new. |
Are they? I mean, usually when I start talking Vulcan a'tha, K't'lk, or Ensign Naraht, I get blank looks... and I don't think many people bother much with the Faction Paradox or that OTHER time war that destroyed Gallifrey or any of those things unless Big Finish happens to be dramatizing one in their classics range. Similarly, Marvel comics Star Wars typically only gets invoked as you invoked it... to point out one of its flaws. So if those fandoms are still out there and thriving, I just haven't found them. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for there to be- heck, it's in my sig. I just haven't found many people that even remember, much less care about or enjoy, those sections of expanded universes that have been overwritten or replaced. (And, in case my phrasing was at fault here, I don't mean a lack of Star Trek fandom in the 70s or 80s, but a lack of fandom for the Star Trek EU that was published in the 70s and 80s and has since been overwritten by a new rebooted EU; the 'relaunch' series.)
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | I just haven't found many people that even remember, much less care about or enjoy, those sections of expanded universes that have been overwritten or replaced. (And, in case my phrasing was at fault here, I don't mean a lack of Star Trek fandom in the 70s or 80s, but a lack of fandom for the Star Trek EU that was published in the 70s and 80s and has since been overwritten by a new rebooted EU; the 'relaunch' series.) |
Ah, I thought you meant just in general - fandom of the "old Trek" from the 70s and 80s (which of course would include the most popular of the movies). I get what you mean now; that makes more sense.
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Leon The Lion
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:00 am Post subject: |
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As for myself?
Well, I wouldn't want to appear as unsympathetic or dismisive of the people who feel sad/angry/cheated/dissapointed/whatever by this whole development... But the honest, sad, ugly truth of the matter is that I actually am, so that's how it'll come across.
Because my reaction to the canon reset and EU wipeout? Is basically this:
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:33 am Post subject: |
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You realize you're on a forum that is, essentially, based around a 100% EU product providing 100% EU stats and scenarios for a 100% EU game?
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Leon The Lion
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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I admit I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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That it's rather hard to hate the EU and also be a fan or player of the WEG RPG which is both foundational to and wholly dependent on the EU. Basically, everything we're discussing here *is* the EU- the modules are part of it, the species and ships and rules owe a primary debt to it, and the game is a living embodiment of it (albeit one that takes the information and ideas provided by it and spins them off into an EU-independent fan-fiction sort of direction). For instance, my party contains a Duros, a Bothan, and a Gand. Without the EU, that would be 'a blue-faced red-eyed unnamed species we know nothing about, a well-known spy species that we have no appearance for, and a bug-thing that is probably a bounty hunter that we know nothing about.' Without it, there would be no sourcebooks... and each one of those sourcebooks is, in turn, a part of the EU... so presumably there's something, at least, to appreciate about it.
So, to wish the EU a joyful demise is kinda to dance on the grave of the D6 RPG we're all kinda here for, anyhow. Or, in short... show some respect, sonny.
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Leon The Lion
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, now I get it, thank you.
See, I don't find it hard at all. I'm wierd like that.
The RPG is not dead for me as long as I keep playing it. It's already here and it's not leaving me if I don't let it. And even without all those additional materials, if all I had to work with ware the trilogies, I could, as I in fact already do, create my own content to use (or steal it from other places, as I do also).
My initial comment is also generalized. There are some pieces of EU material which I like. But they are a miniscule part of the wast whole. And I'll still have those. But that part of the discussion seems to have already been covered by Whill.
Bottom line: In my mind, the RPG is the RPG, and the rest of the EU is the rest of the EU. Seems contradictory, but that's how it is. I can't really explain it wery well, I'm affraid.
Aside, I'm not exactly intending any disrespect for all the creators and contributors of the EU. But I'm perfectly capable of disliking the work even as I admire it's creator for the work he put into it. Take Tolkien for example. I think he performed a monumental, amazing, admirable task in creating his wast, complex setting and story. But Lord of the Rings? Probably the most boring piece of literature I've ever attempted to read.
So, grandpa, I can't show any respect, because I simply have none.  Not the kind you mean at least...
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Remember why the good Lord made your eyes! So don't shade your eyes,
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Also, my guess, Zarm, is that you'll end up finding a lot more than you expect making it into the official "canon" as declared by the story group. Lucas himself ended up taking specific things (for example, the name of Coruscant) from EU sources, much of which he perpetuated in the prequels (which moved them from EU lower-ranked canon into 'official' status).
I feel I have a better feel than the average bear, having been part of a company that worked directly with Lucasfilm, getting approvals for everything (Decipher, when they held the license for their CCGs). Decipher drew heavily on what WEG had done, but they also had the license when the prequels began. So I think Duros, Bothans, and Gands will end up being a part of the overall final tapestry (but that's just a guess on my part).
[BTW, when - after many years - they finally moved from 'official' stuff (material shown only in the movies) and began doing "EU" material (casting live actors and doing photoshoots with real props), the list was very close to the stuff you claimed to like, Zarm. So the characters included ended up being ones like Grand Admiral Thrawn, Mara Jade, Captain Pellaeon, Corran Horn, etc. I still suspect that the Thrawn stories (for example) will not end up becoming canon (due to the fact that they'd interfere with the timeline of the new films), it still goes to show what was core and essential amongst the EU stuff to the professionals at Decipher and Lucasfilm both]
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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I very much hope so, Doug. It hurts my brain to think of how much we don't know 'officially' in terms of simple species and planet names, the existence of institutions like COMPNOR, the ISB, and the CSA, etc... and how much of that could be needlessly Clone Wars-style (Moriban, anyone?) changed my an author with monkey-wrench intent. But just because that *could* happen doesn't mean I suspect it will; I suspect- and definitely hope- that it will end up as you suggest.
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Lane Arroway
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | how much of that could be needlessly Clone Wars-style (Moriban, anyone?) changed my an author with monkey-wrench intent. |
When I saw that on tv it was like getting a slap in the face from GL himself! I know George hates the EU and all, but without it he wouldn't have all the free made-up stuff that comprises the universe his stories are set in. Only knows what he would have called Bib Fortuna's race, Mi'leks? Disney better get a grip on the hardend details like species and planet names, or Korriban won't be the last casualty.
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Zarm R'keeg
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Lane Arroway wrote: | | When I saw that on tv it was like getting a slap in the face from GL himself! I know George hates the EU and all, but without it he wouldn't have all the free made-up stuff that comprises the universe his stories are set in. Only knows what he would have called Bib Fortuna's race, Mi'leks? Disney better get a grip on the hardend details like species and planet names, or Korriban won't be the last casualty. |
Agreed. And the Clone Wars had a lot of those moments. Ryloth still smarts. I do think that, in a lot of ways, it was GL acting out. So many of the changes seemed picayune and pointless, just to assert his control and remind fans 'who's boss.' And while that may be 'critfic,' as its called, I think the psychology of it does make sense...
GL changes the OT in '97, thinks he's fixing it. Taking HIS product that HE's proud of and making it the way it was supposed to be. And fans, with a sentimental attachment to what came before (and... perhaps a bit more taste in terms of what tonally fits with the film that some revisions lacked), were outraged. And GL... well, he was probably a little confused. "I made it better for you... why are you treating me this way? Mocking, and deriding, and making t-shirts about Han Solo shooting..."
Then come the prequels. And GL does his best. Writes stories he's proud of. Achieves things with SFX that no one ever has. Does them his way, the way he's envisioned- and even if, like the SE changes, they aren't being done with the same mindset he had back in the day... based on his current mindset, they are masterpieces. And to be fair, he does achieve great things with them... even if story and dialogue and acting aren't among those things. But again, there is uproar from some segments of fandom. Derision, insults against Lucas and his filmmaking competence, the whole nine yards. From fandom's perspective, GL is delivering inferior product and grafting it onto what was once great, dragging it down. From GL's perspective (which has changed over the years, but not to him), he's doing great things, achieving what he'd always wanted to, doing things the way he wished that he could the whole time. I'd imagine that some hurt and confusion and resentment would be inevitable.
And when Clone Wars came, and GL again delivered what he thought was fantastic and complaints came in that fans preferred what other authors had done in HIS universe, which he didn't even count as official (never mind if it was of a higher subjective quality to them)...! Well, I can imagine a great deal of resentment against the EU would've built up. Debacles like Quinlan Vos ("Okay, I'll play along. You want that EU stuff? I'll do you a favor and take one of your favorite EU things and give the OFFICIAL GL take on it, so it's canon and everything! Now I've made it BETTER for you- you're welcome!" *cricket noises*) probably only solidified that.
So I do see a lot of what Clone Wars did- especially when Filoni and team repeatedly said "Uh... this will conflict, and isn't actually necessary to the story, so how about we remove it and substitute something else? It won't even affect the storyline at all..." and were told "No, go ahead with it anyway..."- as GL exercising a power-trip; proving HE still controlled Star Wars and his word went and the EU was nothing, over-writable on a whim. And as an EU fan, that bugged me- because it seemed like a lot of needless, pointless attacks against other things I love when the EU and Clone Wars could've co-existed harmoniously. But at the same time (and of course this whole scenario is my own fabrication and may not be anywhere close to the truth), from what I perceive to be GL's position, it kinda makes sense... it would have been a very hurtful, frustrating decade-and-a-half, with him constantly putting his work out there and having it rejected, and hearing that some fans thought he wasn't nearly as good at creating the thing he invented as others were, and the like. So while I loathe the Clone Wars and hate the way it needlessly set itself against the EU (with nonsense epitomized by 'Moriban')... at the same time, I kinda feel sorry for the (perceived, maybe false) reasons that GL felt like he had to assert himself and take control of his franchise again. I don't think they're mature, or agree with them... but I can understand them, considering what he probably 'went through' for the last several decades.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | It is better to have loved and lost, than to never have loved at all. |
is that from the Journal of Whill? |
It is now. 8)
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | I don't expect- nor do I think it reasonable or logical- for things to have gone any other way. I'm just kinda... in mourning over how things went. I don't expect to get her back- I just haven't gotten over losing her yet.
Okay, now I think this is starting to make my fandom sound way too creepy.
... I didn't and don't expect otherwise- just wish, in many ways, that it weren't so. My feeling son the Legends stuff are much more 'stages of grief' than 'logical argument of why it shouldn't have happened.' It's about the emotion in reaction to it, not an argument why it shouldn't have happened- because there is no such argument. |
I appreciate honest expression of feelings instead of irrational arguments based on those feelings. And I hope this discussion helps you through the grieving process.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | When you create a replacement and discontinue the original, that usually sends the message- overt statement or not- of 'ignore the old one, it doesn't count anymore; the new one is what you should be paying attention to.' |
No they aren't even subliminally sending that message. Again, you are just taking it that way. The EU is only discontinued in the sense of adding new stories to it. The immensely gargantuan Expanded Universe is now done expanding. It is not being discontinued. I have no doubt there will be a healthy amount of "Legends" material available in the bookstores by the time the new films come out, because they are NOT done selling previously published material. And you say "replacement" although a much better description would be successor. Disney didn't only buy film rights. They bought the entire franchise, including EU material. They will want to start getting a return on that $4 billion investment every way they can. The EU is still a part of the business model. Disney would be throwing away money if it wasn't.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Truthfully, I have sometimes said that as much as I treasure the EU, as long as they just kept the Thrawn Trilogy, the X-wing books (heck, as long as it was just the Wraith Squadron books!), and ideally the WEG and Kyle Katarn materials... I'd be happy. If Disney preserved those and dropped everything else, I'd probably be doing a complete 180. For me, I do 'value' the whole EU... but in the materials I'm truly passionate about, there is also some picking and choosing. |
You seemed concerned that the EU can't be added to any more, but the Thrawn Trilogy, Wraith Squadron series, and WEG material are long over. The newer EU material wasn't adding anything to them, and if you cherish these materials then you already have them in final form without needing the EU to continue them. Oh, you fear that no new EU will lead to people forgetting about the EU as a whole, which will include your old favorites? Kyle Katarn is extremely popular so I'm sure we haven't see the last of him, and the Thrawn Trilogy is sure to be near the top of the list of guaranteed Legends republications.
Also, if they selected certain EU publications to canonize and not others, EU fans would never agree on which ones to keep (and which ones to remain able to be contradicted if need be) so there is no way for EU fans to ever be completely satisfied. It is just simple and fair to just press the reset button on all non-film continuity.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | I know that I'm not getting EU back. I even understand that from Mr. Disney's perspective, this is the logical choice. There's no other decision I could've expected him to make. I would much rather EU's first dad had never left and had continued to leave her to her own devices |
The reason the publication continuity model changed is to make the new films and franchise publications as good as possible. The reason we are getting new films is because Star Wars changed hands to Mr. Disney. Father Lucas wasn't going to make any new movies. Therefore you wish for (no new movies + never-ending EU) over (new movies + movie-canon publications). I'll take the latter, thank you. But then again I'm one of those Star Wars fans that love the films more than anything else. However the new films won't change my appreciation of the EU novels I like now.
The films always had precedence over the EU. To suddenly expect new films to adhere to the EU makes no sense under Lucas or Disney.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | You realize you're on a forum that is, essentially, based around a 100% EU product providing 100% EU stats and scenarios for a 100% EU game? |
Under official Lucasfilm policy, game stats for any SW game were never EU canon.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | That it's rather hard to hate the EU and also be a fan or player of the WEG RPG which is both foundational to and wholly dependent on the EU. ...
So, to wish the EU a joyful demise is kinda to dance on the grave of the D6 RPG we're all kinda here for, anyhow. Or, in short... show some respect |
I can see you really are having a difficult time with this. The SW D6RPG has been officially dead since it ceased publication 16 years ago. However, just like the EU as a whole much more recently, the WEG RPG is still alive for the fans who still cherish it. This conversation and the many other active threads at this website prove it. GMs have always determined what is and isn't canon in their own campaign world(s), so it doesn't matter what the current continuity-status is of any previous work of the EU happens to be. This game is most certainly NOT dependent on the EU. Maybe in your campaigns, but not for all gamers.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | For instance, my party contains a Duros, a Bothan, and a Gand. Without the EU, that would be 'a blue-faced red-eyed unnamed species we know nothing about, a well-known spy species that we have no appearance for, and a bug-thing that is probably a bounty hunter that we know nothing about.'
...It hurts my brain to think of how much we don't know 'officially' in terms of simple species and planet names, the existence of institutions like COMPNOR, the ISB, and the CSA, etc |
Some EU fans seem to proceed from an illogical assumption that by Lucasfilm not canonizing the EU, suddenly all the continuity from the entire EU has just been wiped from existence of the new story group continuity. Duros, Bothans and Gands are very likely still Duros, Bothans and Gands in the new canon until something in the new canon actually renames the species. And even if one of the species gets a new name in the canon, a very common retcon used to resolve contradictions in the EU is to just say that both names are correct. Dac, Mon Calamari and Mon Cala are all names for the same planet. Planets and species can likely have multiple names in the new canon too. And as a SW GM, I am free to rename any species or planet I want.
Also, keep in mind that anything that made it into The Clone Wars show is canonized in the new canon. Cade Bane's species is officially Duros.
| Leon The Lion wrote: | My initial comment is also generalized. There are some pieces of EU material which I like. But they are a miniscule part of the wast whole. And I'll still have those. But that part of the discussion seems to have already been covered by Whill.
The RPG is not dead for me as long as I keep playing it. It's already here and it's not leaving me if I don't let it. And even without all those additional materials, if all I had to work with ware the trilogies, I could, as I in fact already do, create my own content to use (or steal it from other places, as I do also)... |
I mainly disrespect the EU as a whole because it never lived up to Lucasfilm's own continuity standards for it. I like bits and pieces of EU, and I still have them whether they are officially canon in the current franchise or not.
| Leon The Lion wrote: | | Bottom line: In my mind, the RPG is the RPG, and the rest of the EU is the rest of the EU. Seems contradictory, but that's how it is. I can't really explain it wery well, I'm affraid. |
It's not contradictory. RPGs really are a special case. GMs and game players are not EU authors. The GM determines what films and EU works are canon in his own campaign world(s), and the events of individual campaigns were never canonized into the EU. The same RPG adventures could not occur multiple times within the same universe, even with different characters. So there is Star Wars multiverse separate from the EU, and all of our campaign worlds are parts of this multiverse.
| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Moriban, anyone? |
I'll use this to segue back to The Clone Wars. I can't find the blog now but I read a review of the final story arc of the series on Netflix. Several new contradictions to Revenge of the Sith are described, such as Yoda coming to the conclusion that peace is the only way to win the War... But then he goes to assassinate Palpatine while sending Obi-Wan to kill Anakin in the film.
So I was struggling to reconcile the very premise of the series (Anakin getting promoted to Jedi Knight only one month after getting his @ss handed to him in Attack of the Clones, and then even more preposterously Anakin almost immediately being given a padawan), and then I would go forward from there. I was never really sold, and now that I know that the series ends also contradicting the films, there is really no hope for it ever being in my personal canon. When my son is older, if he is into it maybe I'll go through the series with him then.
Since Revenge of the Sith is still canon with respect to the new films, I can only hope that Asucka is not in the new films or even referenced, or at least not referenced as Anakin's padawan. If she isn't, I'll have a much easier time accepting the new films into my personal canon. I also pray Rebels is better than TCW, and that Asucka does not appear or get referred to in that either.
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Leon The Lion
Commander
Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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I just want to say, Whill, you have a much better way with words than I ever will, and you seem quite a wise and benevolent gentelman. I would be honored to count you as a friend.
Alas, it's not ment to be. For you seem to dislike Ashoka Tano. And that, however legitimate your grieviances with her may be, means I can feel nothing but enimity and disdain toward you, ever. Which is a great shame.
, of course.
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