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Luwingo_Spince
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Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 357
Location: California
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 Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:20 pm Post subject: Cybernetics and the Force |
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so i found this rule on an old SW mailing list and found it intriguing. they seem a little clunky, but wanted to share them and get some opinions.
It does seem to address the force being harder to use if parts of your body are robotic.
Cyberpoints and The Force:
When a character calls upon the Force, he must roll a die. If the number
is equal to or higher than the total number of cyberpoints, the Force may be
used with no difference from the rules. If the player rolls under the total
number of cyberpoints, take their total number of cyberpoints x3 and add it to the users difficulty for the use of any and all needed powers. If the power
is one which must be 'kept up', then the added difficulty is the total number
of cyberpoints x4. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 3:01 am Post subject: |
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I've seen several versions. There is that one, one we use in sparks, where every cyberpoint you have ADDS to any DSP you gain (so if you have 3CPs and do something to earn a DSP you gain 4), and the one iirc in crakens field guide where if you try to spend a FP you need to roll higher than your CP total on 1d6 otherwise your attempt to spend it does not work.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 3:33 am Post subject: |
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You could also apply cyber points as an increase in difficulty to use Force skills. Luke, with one cybernetic hand, would increase the base difficulty of all Force skill rolls by +1, while Vader would increase his base by +8...
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shootingwomprats
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:32 am Post subject: |
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I always thought that cybernetic replacements making it harder to access the Force and an avenue to the Dark Side was always kind of silly. It is an odd rule and one that I do not see embraced in any of the movies. Not sure about the animated Clone Wars stuff as I have only watched a little of it.
I think this is perhaps an antiquated concept in science fiction. The idea of the a person losing their humanity the more they replace the "meat" with 'metal", constant cyberpunk trope, but certainly not pulp or space opera. In fact I can think of several instances where a hero in space opera had cyberware.
I just had a thought. If someone loses a hand, arm, or limb do they become disconnected from the Force? I think the answer is a resounding no. So why does adding cyberware make it harder to access the Force? Unless the cyberware in some way hinders the Force which again I don't think really makes sense.
If you go with that logic then stone or metal buildings or places with lots of electronics would block ones ability to access the Force.
Upon further reflection I honestly think this rule is nothing more than an antiquated trope and one that could be argued embodies a societal bias towards prosthetics and people with disabilities as being "less human." I mean we all know that Lucas is a first rate bigot, but c'mon George, gimps? You really hate gimps too?
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aegisflashfire
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Joined: 24 Mar 2014
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:37 am Post subject: |
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I saw a transcript of an interview attributed to G. Lucas-- Basically because midichlorian count = force power the more midichlorians means more power.
Anakin was more powerful than Yoda because of the concentration in his blood, but after losing several limbs his total midichlorians went down, putting him about on-par with Yoda
That would lead to the conclusion that something REALLY big with force sensitivity would be more powerful than something really small; we do see that in Zonama Sekot, able to rip the force from an entire species.
eh. YMMV
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Luwingo_Spince
Commander
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 357
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I saw a transcript of an interview attributed to G. Lucas-- Basically because midichlorian count = force power the more midichlorians means more power. |
Yeah Lucas also talks about this in the revenge of the sith commentary about how Anakin's loss of his limbs reduce his force potential that if he had not been maimed and burned he would have been twice as powerful as the emperor but was now about 80% of the emperor's power.
It is more about the loss of midichlorians that were in his natural flesh like Aegisfire said.
Also the force only works through living things so having pieces of metal replacing flesh would diminish the you ability to connect with it. Robots cannot access the force. (skippy and possibly 4-lom aside).
Yes you can manipulate non living things through the force but you can only only access it through living flesh.
anyways... I was thinking of putting this as an optional rule in the medical sourcebook so was seeing what the consensus was on which rule would be the best. |
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shootingwomprats
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Those are great ideas guys, thanks for sharing them. I am old school though and Midichlorians to not exist in my universe, Anakin was not immaculately conceived by the Force and Reedo short first.
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nuclearwookiee
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | | If someone loses a hand, arm, or limb do they become disconnected from the Force? I think the answer is a resounding no. So why does adding cyberware make it harder to access the Force? Unless the cyberware in some way hinders the Force which again I don't think really makes sense. |
This has always been my feeling, as well. Fundamentally, I think it just comes down to whether or not you're willing to accept Lucas's Ep. I view of the Force or his Ep. V view of the Force.
If one's connection to the Force is dependent on midichlorians, then I could see an increasing number of cybernetics increasing the difficulty of accessing the Force. But I agree with shootingwomprats . . . the increased difficulty is a result of the lost limb, not its replacement. If you follow the midichlorian view, you shouldn't even care about the number of replacements, you should only care about the remaining percentage of the individual compared to that individual's whole state . . . in other words, count the missing limbs.
Even if you adopt the Ep. I view, it raises some mechanical difficulties trying to incorporate it into the d6 ruleset. The d6 rules simply don't recognize Force power beyond the three Force Skills. There is no bonus for a high midichlorian concentration. Padawan Fumbles McDerp can become as powerful as Yoda simply by spending character points, regardless of how many midichlorians Fumbles might have. So if you penalize someone like Anakin for having cybernetic replacements on the basis of it reducing his midichlorian count, you're not only putting him at a disadvantage relative to Master Yoda (which would be appropriate under this view), but you're also placing Anakin at a disadvantage relative to Padawan McDerp. But this wouldn't be appropriate, because Anakin, even in his diminished state, was still more powerful than pretty much every other Jedi he was sent to track down and kill as Vader.
Personally, I still prefer the Ep. V approach. In Empire, Yoda said "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." When he said that, he pinched Luke's arm, indicating that flesh and blood was the "crude matter." Given his emphasis that size matters not, it makes much more sense to say that one's connection to the Force is purely mental. From this perspective, I could see increasing Force power difficulties if an individual either makes the conscious choice to replace body parts with cybernetics, or to replace otherwise lost parts with enhancements. Either case could represent a mental disconnect between the individual and his or her body, so a diminished ability to access the Force might be appropriate. However, I would not penalize someone for a simple replacement, like Luke's hand, as long as that person's mental faculties remained in tact.
One final thought for the midichlorian crowd . . . if one's ability to access the Force is reduced according to a proportional reduction of midichlorians, how are deceased Jedi able to access the Force at all? Qui-gon, Obi-wan, Yoda, Anakin - despite having no bodies and, necessarily, absolutely zero functioning midichlorians - were still able to access the Force, manifesting both visually and audibly. This only makes sense under the "luminous beings" approach, not the "how many symbiotes are in my veins" approach. |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Those are some really excellent points, nuclearwookiee. Well said (and I tend to agree with SWR that this is somewhat of an older, misguided trope).
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Luwingo_Spince
Commander
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 357
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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ok... I appreciate everyone viewpoints on this matter. I really wanted to discuss the merits of the rule that I found and how to make it workable.
I understand that not all see cyberpoints as something they use in their game. But it is a ruleset that some do.
I'm sure there are alot of things that we don't agree on in the SW universe and that is fine. GMs run their games however they want.
The point of this thread is to discuss how to make this rule workable not if you agree if cybernetics is something that decrease your force abilities or not.
It is my fault for responding to SWR to defend my position and for not clarifying that this was the feedback that I was looking for. I apologize for that.
I just have seen too many threads go on this back and forth, completely derailing the thread and having both sides never convincing each other of their viewpoints. |
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Luwingo_Spince wrote: | ok... I appreciate everyone viewpoints on this matter. I really wanted to discuss the merits of the rule that I found and how to make it workable.
*SNIP*
The point of this thread is to discuss how to make this rule workable not if you agree if cybernetics is something that decrease your force abilities or not.
It is my fault for responding to SWR to defend my position and for not clarifying that this was the feedback that I was looking for. I apologize for that.
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Okay, so just want to make sure we're clear, you're asking for whether or not the mechanics you present are balanced and functional? And, if we want to have a discussion on the merits of "mechanized body parts interfering with the Force" then split it into a different topic?
I split the posts into separate topics if that's what we want to do.
I'm just asking to make sure I understand you properly.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14133
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| shootingwomprats wrote: | I always thought that cybernetic replacements making it harder to access the Force and an avenue to the Dark Side was always kind of silly. It is an odd rule and one that I do not see embraced in any of the movies. Not sure about the animated Clone Wars stuff as I have only watched a little of it.
I think this is perhaps an antiquated concept in science fiction. The idea of the a person losing their humanity the more they replace the "meat" with 'metal", constant cyberpunk trope, but certainly not pulp or space opera. In fact I can think of several instances where a hero in space opera had cyberware.
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Take a look at shadowrun. The more cyberware you get (even bioware), the less one's Essence is, which is how one manipulates magic.
| Quote: | | Also the force only works through living things so having pieces of metal replacing flesh would diminish the you ability to connect with it. Robots cannot access the force. (skippy and possibly 4-lom aside). |
Exactly L. If being cyber'ed did not affect one's ability to use/access the force, why are droids not allowed to access it. Cause they are not alive.
If one wants to just make it harder to use the force, perhaps a 1cy point gives a +3-5 penalty to the difficulty to use powers. Alter being the easier to use, control being the harder.
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nuclearwookiee
Lieutenant Commander
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Posts: 171
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Luwingo_Spince wrote: | | The point of this thread is to discuss how to make this rule workable not if you agree if cybernetics is something that decrease your force abilities or not. |
Sorry, let me rephrase then. As I pointed out, penalizing someone for gaining cybernetic replacements does not make sense in a ruleset that only recognizes the level of training in the Force (i.e., the number of character points a character has invested in the three powers) rather than one's Force potential (midichlorian count, if you want to call it that). This implies that, in order for the penalties to make sense, you need to also craft rules that recognize, and grant bonuses for, individuals with great Force potential like Anakin and Yoda. I can think of at least three ways to do this.
First, grant some sort of flat bonus that you think is appropriate for individuals based on your estimate of their Force potential. For example, maybe the Skywalker line grants a +10 bonus to all Force skill uses to reflect the line's strong connection to the Force. This would not only explain why a Skywalker is better than another Jedi with equivalent training, it would also explain why Luke was such a quick study. Even though he might not have had time to gain many dice worth of Force skills while on Dagobah, he was able to use the Force effectively because of the bonus. You could then simply reduce this bonus based on the number of cybernetic replacements. To continue our example, maybe Luke's bonus was reduced to +9 after he replaced his hand, while Vader's bonus was reduced to +2 for replacing most of his body. The "penalty," then, is really just a reduction in bonus - it is the process of removing what was otherwise an abnormally strong connection to the Force. In this system, Padawan Fumbles McDerp is the baseline with a +0 Force skill bonus.
As I explained above, if you don't have a system of bonuses, but use this system of cybernetic penalties, then you end up with Vader being inherently less powerful than Padawan McDerp even though Vader might still have a greater Force potential (whether you adhere to either Ep. I or V).
Second, you could use a system of maximum values on the Force skills similar to the racial maximums on attributes. Maybe someone like Anakin or Yoda has a max of 15D in the three Force powers, for example, while Padawan McDerp only has a max of 5D. You might apply the total penalty for cybernetic enhancements to reducing the number of pips in this maximum. If Anakin had 8 points worth of cybernetics, maybe his potential has been reduced to 12D+1 (or whatever scale you want to use). This would limit the character in overall power while not immediately impacting his ability to use the Force (unless he was already maxed).
Third, you could apply the cybernetic point total as an extra cost on increasing Force skills. According to Galaxy Guide 5, Luke had a Control of 10D during Return of the Jedi. Aftering getting the replacement hand, maybe it costs him 11 character points to increase his Control rather than 10. In both the second and third options, the point is to restrict the individual's subsequent growth in the Force after gaining cybernetics rather than decreasing what has already been gained.
Even if you decide to just use the cybernetic penalty as written, again, I strongly encourage you to distinguish between necessary replacements on the one hand (like Luke . . . which is kind of punny ha), and elective replacements or enhancements on the other. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Luwingo_Spince wrote: | | The point of this thread is to discuss how to make this rule workable not if you agree if cybernetics is something that decrease your force abilities or not. |
In that light, I think this mechanic is overly cumbersome, in that you have to roll a dice check every time you use a Force skill just to see whether or not you can use a Force skill. I don't mind adding a dice roll to my games if it adds something, but there are easier ways to go about it than this rule.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Luwingo_Spince
Commander
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Posts: 357
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Okay, so just want to make sure we're clear, you're asking for whether or not the mechanics you present are balanced and functional? And, if we want to have a discussion on the merits of "mechanized body parts interfering with the Force" then split it into a different topic?
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Yes cheshire that would be great if others want to talk about it.
| Quote: | | In that light, I think this mechanic is overly cumbersome, in that you have to roll a dice check every time you use a Force skill just to see whether or not you can use a Force skill. I don't mind adding a dice roll to my games if it adds something, but there are easier ways to go about it than this rule. |
I think your right about this Crmcneill, I think the roll makes it clunky.
| Quote: | | If one wants to just make it harder to use the force, perhaps a 1cy point gives a +3-5 penalty to the difficulty to use powers. |
This might be the way to go, simple and easy to use. Can you give more information why you think control would be harder and alter easier instead of a blanket reduction in force.
| Quote: | | you could apply the cybernetic point total as an extra cost on increasing Force skills. According to Galaxy Guide 5, Luke had a Control of 10D during Return of the Jedi. Aftering getting the replacement hand, maybe it costs him 11 character points to increase his Control rather than 10. In both the second and third options, the point is to restrict the individual's subsequent growth in the Force after gaining cybernetics rather than decreasing what has already been gained. |
This is perhaps another option. |
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