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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | I don't know about most people, but I'd say a lot of us think that the scaling rules from 2E (or even the scaling rules from 1E) better reflect the relative capabilities of the vehicles. |
I have no doubt that those of you who do feel that 2nd has a more proper balance have good reasons for doing so. How does that balance differ? Does it make the different scales more or less far apart, or is there some other issue? |
The power levels between scales is different. With 2E there was a cap to die rolls. For instance if a speeder was shooting at a walker the damage dice were capped at 3. That's a bit more of a power gap than the 2D in 2R&E.
It's a lot harder in 2E, with a 3 point cap pie die for the T-47 to do enough to damage an AT-AT, since the best the t-47 can do is around 15 damage, well below the AT-AT average soak of 21.
In 2R&E 5D can beat 8D more often. Especially with combined fire.
And the scaling in 1E was even more limiting, since dice above the cap were dropped. So while I think the cap for speeder vs.. walker was a 4, a lot of dice would zero out.
Personally, I wish attack rolls were't scaled as thre size of the firer really has no bearing. And just because one scale if more powerful or bigger than the previous one doesn't mean that it is easier to hit. For instance, it should be a lot tougher to hit an X-Wing than an AT-AT. Instead of capping attack rolls I'd rather they just adding a bonus for the target size. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | For instance, it should be a lot tougher to hit an X-Wing than an AT-AT. Instead of capping attack rolls I'd rather they just adding a bonus for the target size. |
That was part of why I flipped Walker and Starfighter for my scale system. Not only does it put the AT-AT pretty far out of the damage range for the speeder, it also makes the X-Wing harder to hit (but also more fragile) by making it smaller (which it is) and more maneuverable.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | For instance, it should be a lot tougher to hit an X-Wing than an AT-AT. Instead of capping attack rolls I'd rather they just adding a bonus for the target size. |
That was part of why I flipped Walker and Starfighter for my scale system. Not only does it put the AT-AT pretty far out of the damage range for the speeder, it also makes the X-Wing harder to hit (but also more fragile) by making it smaller (which it is) and more maneuverable. |
That certainly seems reasonable.
However, in what sorts of scenarios - other than strafing runs - would this be a headache? It seems to me like the scales matter more within either the space combat or ground (and near-ground) combat. It seems like flipping them would put capital ships and starfighters further apart - not that this bothers me. |
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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| One idea I was considering was a variant of the scale number that is more compatible with 2R&E. Basically give every thing a scale class. This would probably be equal to the scale dice it would get against a character (speeder 2, walker 4, starfighter 6, etc.). The you'd subtract dice to get the bonus in a fight. Since the scale is equal to the number of dice,w e could shift scales for some vehicles, use half step ranges (like a scale 5 vehicle), and introduce new scales (a 8 scale transport) all without any headaches. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | However, in what sorts of scenarios - other than strafing runs - would this be a headache? It seems to me like the scales matter more within either the space combat or ground (and near-ground) combat. It seems like flipping them would put capital ships and starfighters further apart - not that this bothers me. |
It will probably make more sense in the larger context, as I didn't just flip the two; that was in addition to other changes. The scale system looks like this:Character 0D
Cycle 2D
Speeder 4D
Starfighter 6D
Walker 8D
Starship 10D
Capital 14D
Dreadnaught 18D
Death Star 24D As far as starfighters, it shifts the balance in their favor by moving them 2D closer to Starships (capital ships smaller than a Victory Star Destroyer), but makes the big ships even more formidable by moving them up 2D relative to starfighters.
I've gotten most of the complaints about making Walker so much more durable, but it never made sense to me that something like the AT-AT would be smaller in scale than an X-Wing, especially after watching the SPHA-T's take out Core Ships at Geonosis. I consider AT-STs and AT-PTs to be Speeder scale instead of Walker anyway.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | One idea I was considering was a variant of the scale number that is more compatible with 2R&E. Basically give every thing a scale class. This would probably be equal to the scale dice it would get against a character (speeder 2, walker 4, starfighter 6, etc.). The you'd subtract dice to get the bonus in a fight. Since the scale is equal to the number of dice,w e could shift scales for some vehicles, use half step ranges (like a scale 5 vehicle), and introduce new scales (a 8 scale transport) all without any headaches. |
If you are looking to simplify scale, why not just fold it into the D6 Dice Simplification optional rule?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
If you are looking to simplify scale, why not just fold it into the D6 Dice Simplification optional rule? |
You mean the one where you don't roll more than 5D, and the rest gets converted to a flat modifier? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16320
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Yup.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Okay. I'm not so sure I like it. Everything rolling the same dice, especially with a cap as low as 5D might not have best effect or scaling. For instance an X-Wing rolling 5D6+3 damage against an ISD's 5D6+39 soak is hopeless, where 6D vs. 16D is only virtually hopeless.  |
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Bulldogzeta
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Joined: 08 Jan 2009
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Location: Fox Valley, Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:19 am Post subject: |
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I use 2nd Ed. R&E, but occasionally find myself falling back to using die caps for space battles. Doesn't make a big difference in the end. 
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