Concepts of the Force

[crazydanny1]

Here's a question I'd like to throw at the group: Where do you stand on the disciplines/concepts of the Force?

Since the EU has expanded so much over the years since WEG disappeared, we've been bombarded with a lot of new information concerning the Force. It used to be either Dark side or Light side when in came to the Force. Now we have the Living Force, the Unifying Force, the Dark side, and a few others that were developed by alien Force-users.

Has anyone incorporated these and how are you handling Dark Side Points and other acts if you have?
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[Naaman]

I treat the Force as Yoda describes it. It is "the Force." Regardless of what we call it, it functions the same way. Using the Force in anger/fear/selfishly, etc results in a dark side point.

Having a different belief about somethinf does not change the way it works. I might believe I can walk on air, but that does not mean I can. I might believe that murder/rape/robbery is okay or "justified," but that does not mean I can do so everyday without being evil.

I might believe that Force lightning is a "tool" that can be used for good, despite beimg a corruption of the Force that is a manifestation of rage, but that does not mean I shouldnt get a darkside point for using it.

There are others on here who feel differently than I do, and Imsure they will chime in.

[shootingwomprats]

Here is a very simple Force philosophy I posted for a character I was making.

Shem-du-Vale Philosophy: the devotee may attempt to use what are traditionally viewed as dark side Force skills in a neutral manner (without the use of hatred, anger or fear). Make a Willpower or Knowledge skill check vs Moderate difficulty (+1D per point of Corruption. If the roll fails the devotee was unable to resist the corruption of the Dark Side (using hatred, anger or fear) and gains one point of Corruption. If the roll succeeds the devotee has successfully channeled the skill for his purpose without the use of dark side elements and does not gain a point of Corruption.

You can substitute Dark Side Point for Corruption, which is a homebrew mechanic I use for my game.
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[Dromdarr_Alark]

I agree with Naaman.

There is the Force, and then there is corruption of the Force.

If you want to use powers that are effectively similar to Dark Side powers, then you'll need to manifest the powers in a different way. Dark Side powers require the user to be full of hatred or fear or anger, and they cannot manifest without those feelings. So for a light side character to effectively shoot lightning from his fingers, he cannot use Force Lightning. Period. Or he will get a Dark Side point.

He can, however, influence electrical currents around him and concentrate them all into one pathway that shoots towards an enemy. This would require a boat-load of concentration, and even a fair amount of risk because the Force is being used to injure someone.

"The Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack."
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[shootingwomprats]

I have had this discussion far too often and it literally boggles my mind. I do not espouse the idea that people should normally be able to create characters that can go around and use dark side powers as they are written.

I have championed the idea that skills can be accessed and used in more than a single way. That the predominant way that a Force skill is accessed may not be the only way.

Case in point Force Lighting. The traditional way that Force Lightning is used is considered a dark side power, not because it requires anger to access nor that it is meant to cause damage, but how the person is manipulating the Force.

If the way the Force is manipulated is done in a different way, though it mechanically is the same, is not. Perhaps the character is using the force to excite the electrostatic charge in the air and further uses the Force to direct its flow. That certainly would not require anger or hate or fear to do.

Further more, perhaps energy flow can be manipulated using the Force to change the amplitude of the lighting to cause stun instead of actual damage.

In my mind there are tons of way that can logically explain using the Force to access skills traditionally felt to be dark side.

I also feel that a lot of the stuff we readily accept as explanations about the nature and use of the Force as deeply influenced by Jedi dogma. This would mean that all we understand and know is through the filter of Jedi philosophy.

This can be looked at from a real world example: Protestant religion. There are multiple ways to get to heaven as described by each denomination. The end result, you get into heaven, yippee. The same with the Force.

Hopefully I did not sound angry while explaining this view. I just, think that people need to be open to different ideas instead of immediately decrying cannon or stating there is one and only one way to do something.

Love to hear what others have to say =)
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[garhkal]

That sounds like how Vergre tried to corrupt Jacen. Its not the dark side of the force that gives you dark side points, its the essence in the soul of the user of the force that gets it.
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[Quetzacotl]

Disclaimer: This is all just my opinion, it doesn't mean that it's a universal truth. (Just writing that so that I don't have to write "In my opinion" all the time ^^)

Well, for me there is no "dark side" or "light side" of the Force. It's simply "The Force" and nothing else.
The "Dark Side" and "Light Side" are completely psychological phenomenons. If I use a Power that is linked to my psyche in a negative manner (i.e. killing someone), it will affect my psyche in a negative manner, which might results in "becoming evil".
But for me Force Powers are not per se Dark or Light. It depends on how u use them, how you see the universe and how much you can resist the psychic implications of using such a power.

The thing is, that there is no such thing as the "universal good" or the "universal evil". It's all subjektiv and thus based on the viewpoint of the person who tries to find out if something is "evil" or "good".
An action that looks evil to us might be good from a certain point of view and vice versa.

So, in the end, it's really hard to say when you should get a DSP and when not and how the own viewpoint of the person comes into play.

Personally, I don't really like the DSP-System as it is used in the rules because it's so binary... you're either good or you're evil and you can either resist being evil or not.
That doesn't really make any sense for me as using "Dark Side" Force Powers for something "good" should not grant a DSP...
Personally, I like the DnD Alignment-System better and that could probably be used as a basis for a better DSP-System... would have to think about that a little more ^^

[vanir]

It's true that the FP/DSP nature of the RPG represents a false dichotomy: only two possible answers to what amounts to a complicated question, it's circular and reinforces the argument that only two answers exist and yours is the right one. This is what political manoeuvring looks like.

The raw story-telling itself allows a degree of complication, when Luke is tempted (several times) by the Dark Side...and as is outlined the term itself does really refer to the darker side of our own (fallible) human natures. We are an animal species at our very roots and core and when it all comes down to it, any human can simply elect to rape/murder/thieve any time he feels like it, on a whim. It's that present in all of us.

The Force itself is what the name suggests and just a Force. There are certain rules asserted within the general SWU-plotline that sentients must observe when using the Force so as not to become corrupted by the very nature of power. As Lord Howe infamously said in Parliament, "If power corrupts, then absolute power corrupts absolutely." (it was a big argument for modern democratic parliamentarianism).

The Jedi use proxies for the Force in any direct combat, otherwise they're very peaceful and passive when using the Force itself, using it for visions and personal development/enhancement rather than hurling lightning around like a wizard.
In combat the Jedi enhance their abilities with a lightsabre using the Force, whereas the Sith will use the Force directly for the combat. One could argue that the Jedi are not prone to falling prey to their own natures wielding pure power because they use the lightsabre to fight rather than using the Force directly to affect others in a deadly way. Because the Sith forego this caution, they fall prey to megalomania, guilt/paranoia, all these fallible sentient humanisms of personal experiences. You cannot help but be affected by what you do or you'd be a robot, sometimes your own conscience really is your own worst enemy even if you're a mass murderer, it's like the mechanical process of the biological brain that works against you.

So here is wherein it all lay, I believe. Just because an alien Force-tradition doesn't recognize DSP for what they are, doesn't mean they don't get one every time they use a telekinetic kill and call it karma instead of cold blooded murder.




I'll tell you a GM device I use in campaigns: when a PC-FU has, to my mind begun pressing his luck in how he uses the Force, to the extent of arguing for the use of nominally Dark Side powers as "neutrally used" and thus not soliciting DSP, I let him and simply create a tally of DSP he gains whilst telling him they're FP awards. He doesn't know they're DSP, I keep my own record of them and simply let him use them like FP.
I let them gain several DSP and begin exerting their role of taking over PC actions at critical moments in gameplay...at which point they become aware they've been gaining DSP and not FP at all.

That's basically how I see the Force working. Point of view doesn't matter with DSP.

[Dromdarr_Alark]

[Ral_Brelt]

Following the certain point of view ideology... if that truly is the case, why do so many Sith have so many DSPs? If they see nothing wrong with the way they do things, they shouldn't have nearly so many DSPs, right?

On that alone, the certain point of view stuff doesn't wash.

[Dromdarr_Alark]

[Leon The Lion]

[DB 2.0]

Say dose any one else give out "Light Side Points" to those who unbalance the natral order too far towards the Light Side?

in eras when the Force is in Balance I give out both DSP and LSP, but during the Rebellion era the story of the Light Side is pushing back the dark so I don't give out LSP, but I do during the TotJ anl later New Republic eras.

[lurker]

CrazyD

As you can see, your question can quickly become a debate equal to ‘politics, religion, and her'. As such, there is no right answer. Just general stances from one's point of view. (fortunately, we around here can have vastly different points of view -on multiple subjects - and debate them/discus them and all remain friends!

That said, you as a GM will have to figure out just which view you fir in and how it applies to your galaxy and how your players (especially force users) will be able to operate in that view.

Now for my personal view, I'll start by preferencing it with a "I may have a unique view on it just as my view on real world, so my view of the force may be also unique" statement.

I agree with Dromdarr on his

[Dromdarr_Alark]