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Tupteq
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 285
Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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 Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 11:10 am Post subject: Combat and CP/FP spending problems |
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Before i go to the merits I'm going to describe a situation, to provide appropriate background.
Legend:
CUTDS = Call upon the Dark Side
MA = Martial Arts
c/s/a = Control, Sense, Alter
* explanation below
I had a relatively big combat on my last session, both sides were of similar power level with slight advantage on PCs side (+1 PC with surprise effect):
PCs, combat skills around 5D-7D:
Heavy Guy, iskalloni: heavy armor, repeater, later using MA. Most cautious player, likes to conserve FPs.
Mercenary, human: medium armor, very heavy blaster pistols. Nervous player, sometimes makes hasty decisions.
Self-taught Jedi, epicanthix: minimal armor, lightsaber using Form III*, not very powerful: c/s/a: 2D+2, 1D+2, 5D. Power player, a bit aggressive, doesn't like to lose.
Soldier, human: heavy armor, blaster rifle, joined the combat in about 4th round. Lucky in dice.
Opponent NPCs, combat skills around 5D-6D, force skills around 4D:
Fallen Jedi #1, human, bodyguard: medium armor, lightwhip using Form I.
Fallen Jedi #2, iktochi (female), spec-op: smasher armor, unstable lightsaber using Form VI, then two vibroblades.
Fallen Jedi #3, togrutta, assassin: combat jumpsuit, double-bladed lightsaber using Form VII (yeh, this reminds something).
I'm using some house rules:
- Lightsaber forms, effectively rising some aspect of lightsaber combat by up to 3D: Form III for defense, Form VII for both attack and defense, Form I to disarm, Form VI has lower bonus but to all lightsaber actions. There are some more effects of forms but they are less important.
- Only +1 to damage/lightsaber is added for 1D of control/sense, so effective lightsaber damages were like 5D+4 and effective lightaber skills like 6D+4 (plus forms).
- Lightsaber cuts through the armor: armor roll at -1D.
- Each 5 over to-hit difficulty provides +1 to damage (all types of attack).
- Force Points double dice only for one action (not for the whole round).
- CUTDS doesn't allow quadding, no more than one FP can be spent for one action.
- Defense roll degradates after each "use" (each subsequent attack in one round to the same target reduce it's defense total).
- My wound level table is "stretched": 1-10 wounded, 11-15 incapacitated, 16-20 mortally wounded, 21+ dead.
- Few more but less important.
That was the final fight of the campaign. The battleground was a hall of office building (about 20x40x20 meters), PCs sneaked into building but Fallen Jedi were waiting for them. Combat started at distance of about 30m.
Result (CP/FP values are from my memory, so can be not exact, but should be close):
- Heavy Guy (attacked by #3) only wounded thank to damage reduction and FPs (took two LS hits), spent: 4FP, 5CP.
- Mercenary incapacitated by #2 in first hit, spent: 3FP, 6CP.
- Self-taught Jedi not even scratched (fighting with #1), spent: 1FP (+1 CUTDS), (!!!) 15CP.
- Soldier - miraculously (e.g. +17 to roll for 1CP) only some scratches due to fall, helped with #2 and then with #3, spent: 2FP, 4CP.
- #1 - Escaped unscratched, spent: 2FP, ~2CP.
- #2 - Wounded and later shot by Mercenary after losing lightsaber (surprise called shot by Soldier), spent: 2FP (+1 CUTDS), ~9CP.
- #3 - Wounded twice by Heavy Guy's MA, then Shot by Heavy Guy and Soldier, spent: 1FP (+1 CUTDS), ~7CP.
The problem is the FP/CP spending. All combatants except of #1 spent all FPs, all NPCs except of #1 spent all CPs. To avoid "who uses FP first wins" issue, everyone used FP as an answer to other side FP or later for damage soak. Jedi PC used lot of CPs fighting #1, because he had less FPs than his opponent (and because of his nature he wanted to win at all costs).
The effect was that there was a clinch (FP vs. FP, or CPs) until FPs were exhausted. The mechanism was always the same - first FPs plus eventual single CPs and after FPs finished then lot of CPs was used.
The combat ended in about 8 rounds, but it took us over 3 hours!!! This is another issue.
Conclusions (issues):
1. Even weakened FPs are too powerful, the only answer to them is the other FP or bunch of CPs.
2. FPs for skill levels ~6D+ produce enormously high results making impossible possible. Nothing is impossible to character, for just 5D and FP a Heroic (30) chance of success is over 80% and the probability dramatically increases with each additional die. FP effect is much stronger with every additional die, causing a kind of snowball effect.
3. (problem introduced by my house rule) FP added to one roll advantages defender because one defense roll is used for the whole combat round, but each attack requires separate roll. On the other hand if defender already rolled his defense (without use of FP), and later someone attacks him using FP, he can't answer to that spending FP.
4. Players may lose lot of CPs during game, especially if run out of FPs.
5. Spending FPs slows down game due to lot of more dice to sum.
6. CPs applied after roll slow down game too (additional roll(s), new sum), especially when both sides do this.
7. There's a temptation of using CPs by players, but later they are not happy because of slow character progress (although they blame me or rules, not themselves).
8. Active players may be punished, so they do most and they spent most CPs. On the other hand a cautious CP collector is awarded for his passive play.
I read some topics on forum related to issues above, but I didn't come up with solution working for me. Here are the topics:
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4207
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4247
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3573
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3892
Edit: one more source http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3915
I have some ideas, but they are far from complete. For convenience I'm writing both my Ideas and ideas found in topics above. Ideas I like mosts are on top (A).
Force Points variant A
Force Point provides flat +10 to one test. It has to be declared before the roll, except of defenses. If used to defense (like parry) it rises defense only versus one particular attack.
Pros: fast and simple - no additional dice rolled, more predictable result, no snowball effect (2), can be applied after roll (3).
Cons: not so powerful (players don't like it).
Force Points variant B
Make half dice (round up) sixes, roll only the rest. For example with 5D skill, you have 18 (ceil(5/2) = 3D*6) and you roll only 2D.
Pros: reduced snowball effect, more predictable results, very fast (roll less dice).
Cons: roll less dice for FP? WTF?, can't be added after roll.
Force Points variant C
Roll 2*n, keep n (see this topic). I didn't do math yet, but for sure it will generate lower results.
Pros: reduced snowball effect, more predictable result.
Cons: even slower than original rule, can't be added after roll.
Force Points variant D
Add +2 for each die.
Pros: fast and simple, more predictable result, can be added after roll.
Cons: snowball effect.
Character Points variant A
Limit CP usage to 1 per roll, but if it's spent before the roll it gives +2D, after roll it provides only +1D. Also, bonus dice don't explode (because it slows down the game).
Pros: less CP expenditure, more tactical use, more predictable results, faster.
Cons: less powerful (it may be a pro, limiting a number of CPs players want to spend).
Character Points variant B
Return some CPs spent in similar way to FPs. I'm practitioning it already, I'm returning roughly about half of spent CPs (more or less, depending on use).
Pros: effectively reduces CPs "lost" to raise actions.
Cons: no speed-up, doesn't really solve the problem, only transfers it to GM.
Note: I don't like this solution because it reminds me taxes: "you pay us $10 in taxes, we'll consume $5 and give you $5 completely for free" 
Character Points variant C
Limit number of CPs that can be used per game session.
Pros: limits CP expenditure.
Cons: players don't like artificial limits, doesn't solve CP collector problem ( 8 ).
Character Points variant D
Use Luck Points or Luck attribute providing fixed number of Luck Points to spend in each adventure. Attribute variant allows increasing this number. Initial number of Luck Points could depend on species (the more poweful species, the less Luck Points).
Pros: eliminates CP spending completely (although it was not my point).
Cons: extra bookkeeping.
Character Points variant E
Character has to decide in advance if he wants an XP or CP (see this topic).
Pros: decision of spending has to be preceded by decision of "converting".
Cons: extra bookkeeping, doesn't solve a CP/XP collector problem. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14173
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The problem is the FP/CP spending. All combatants except of #1 spent all FPs, all NPCs except of #1 spent all CPs. To avoid "who uses FP first wins" issue, everyone used FP as an answer to other side FP or later for damage soak. Jedi PC used lot of CPs fighting #1, because he had less FPs than his opponent (and because of his nature he wanted to win at all costs). |
Perhaps if they didn't have so many FP/CP that would not be an issue, or as much of one as you feel.
Other solutions.. 1) If someone is taking more than 1 action, have him roll ALL hs actions ahead of time while you deal with someone else, then when its his turn have him read off action 1 and its roll.
Then go to action 2 and so on.
2) limit # of actions to 1/full D in dex..
| Quote: | | The effect was that there was a clinch (FP vs. FP, or CPs) until FPs were exhausted. The mechanism was always the same - first FPs plus eventual single CPs and after FPs finished then lot of CPs was used. |
Are you saying they spent FP and CP in the same round?
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2272
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Combat and CP/FP spending problems |
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| Tupteq wrote: | Force Points variant C
Roll 2*n, keep n (see this topic). I didn't do math yet, but for sure it will generate lower results.
Pros: reduced snowball effect, more predictable result.
Cons: even slower than original rule, can't be added after roll.
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So what is n in the above equation?
Overall I get your dilemma, and am wondering if the players realized that this was the end of the campaign. In other words (and it would make sense that they did realize this), they might have figured that - this being the "boss" of the level (as per video game terminology), there wasn't much reason to hold back and not spend all that they could to stop the big bads.
I've done around 9 sessions in my latest campaign, and not a single FP has been spent. But then they haven't been tremendously challenged yet, either (and they know they don't get them back again if they spend them, unless it's for something truly heroic).
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
| Quote: | | The effect was that there was a clinch (FP vs. FP, or CPs) until FPs were exhausted. The mechanism was always the same - first FPs plus eventual single CPs and after FPs finished then lot of CPs was used. |
Are you saying they spent FP and CP in the same round? |
That was how I read his explanation.
I can understand how you can see doubling all skills for a round as being a little unbalanced, but it's the other parts of the standard rule that balance out that massive bonus.
1st: Characters cannot spend character points to enhance rolls in the same round that they've used a force point. This means that a player needs to think things through before they spend a force point, because if the force point falls short of what they need, that's it. There's nothing else they can do to enhance the roll.
By limiting force points to individual skill rolls, you've in a sense created the beast that you're dealing with. Most Characters and Game Master Characters will have less than 5 force points. Which means that the power rolling can really only go on for five rounds or so at best. The calling upon the dark side rule is to bait characters to stepping onto the dark path to become future villains of the party, and to allow your GMCs an out for matching the players.
If a player wants to keep matching the bad guy force point for force point, he will eventually fall to the dark side and join him. This mechanic reflects how a dark sider manages to goad good guys into falling.
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With that being said, you then need to take a look at the force point versus character points for soak to save your character. If a player spends a force point, they will, most likely have approximately 6 to 8D to soak damage (not including armor) for the entire round. Whereas if they spend maximum character points (5) they may have anywhere from 8 - 9D to soak damage(not including armor) for one hit.
These examples are looking at the rules as they're written.
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You have managed to figure out how to beat the force point system as written with the house rule you already employ:
| Quote: | | - Defense roll degradates after each "use" (each subsequent attack in one round to the same target reduce it's defense total). |
Even if a player spends a force point and the effect lasts the round, the bad guy can spend a force point and swing with multiple attacks to degrade his opponent's defense. He cripples his own, however that can open up that particular player to an assault from another bad guy.
If your self taught Jedi doubles his skill for lightsaber & sense which would be 2D+4 + unknown number. Theoretically, your NPC should be able to easily overpower him going force point to force point unless you roll badly. 6Dx2 = 12D+ 4Dx2 = 20D plus form bonuses(19D if you include multiple action penalty for Lightsaber Combat) vs. at most 7Dx2 14D + 2D+4 = 16D+4.
So, your bad guy already has a 2D to 3D advantage over the player.
If he hits, he's going to do 5D+8 damage versus the Jedi's doubled strength which can't be augmented by character points. Most likely 6D range?
5x3.5 = 17.5 + 8 = 25.5 vs 6x3.5 = 21 which means he'll get a wound and lose lightsaber combat for the round. He then needs to bring the power back up which will cost him extra dice from his attack still leaving your darksider with the advantage.
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Another idea you could try is to just have force point expenditure cancel each other out.
If player spends force point to double and bad guy spends force point to double, then why not just have each roll basic skill? It cuts down on the number of dice that everyone is rolling and the effect is seen. So as long as folks are matching force to force the contest is the same. Just keep doubles for damage and soak.
I just think that by changing the way that force points work initially has helped to contribute to your situation more than you may have realized. They balance out in their own way, they give a character 5 or so seconds to shine and then they go away. Unless it's returned at the end of the chapter.
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Tupteq
Commander
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 285
Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Perhaps if they didn't have so many FP/CP that would not be an issue, or as much of one as you feel. |
It's not easy to keep CP/FP number at moderate level. Player who spent most CPs was gathering them for improving force skills (he just didn't have time for training recently). Player having most FPs likes to hoard everything. I think that to keep FP count equally low among all PCs I had to cheat and treat players unevenly.
| garhkal wrote: | Other solutions.. 1) If someone is taking more than 1 action, have him roll ALL hs actions ahead of time while you deal with someone else, then when its his turn have him read off action 1 and its roll.
Then go to action 2 and so on.
2) limit # of actions to 1/full D in dex.. |
Number of actions wasn't really a problem. Usually it was only two actions: attack and defense, sometimes two attacks or move and attack.
| garhkal wrote: | | Are you saying they spent FP and CP in the same round? |
I wasn't saying that, but with FP working only for one action (not for the whole round) it's not a problem. For one action up to 2CPs or 1FP could be spent, FP and CP can't be used simultaneously in one action.
My point was that FPs are used early to take advantage, but are usually countered by FP. When there was no more FPs, then CPs are used. Sometimes NPC used FP first, sometimes it was PC. Not getting FP back for non-heroic use is a small problem compared to risk of death.
| DougRed4 wrote: | | Tupteq wrote: | Force Points variant C
Roll 2*n, keep n (see this topic). I didn't do math yet, but for sure it will generate lower results.
Pros: reduced snowball effect, more predictable result.
Cons: even slower than original rule, can't be added after roll.
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So what is n in the above equation? |
Number of skill or attribute dice. Having skill at 5D, you roll 10D, but only 5 dice (usually highest) count. This is explained in this topic: http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3915 (I forgot to add it to "reference topics", but few minutes ago I edited my initial post and added it).
| DougRed4 wrote: | | Overall I get your dilemma, and am wondering if the players realized that this was the end of the campaign. In other words (and it would make sense that they did realize this), they might have figured that - this being the "boss" of the level (as per video game terminology), there wasn't much reason to hold back and not spend all that they could to stop the big bads. |
They realized that when right after the combat started. But (continuing your VG terminology), this wasn't the last level, they will play the next campaign with the same characters. But of course, it's better to finish with no FPs and alive, than die with 2FPs. |
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Tupteq
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 285
Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | I just think that by changing the way that force points work initially has helped to contribute to your situation more than you may have realized. They balance out in their own way, they give a character 5 or so seconds to shine and then they go away. Unless it's returned at the end of the chapter. |
You may have right, trying to solve one problem i might create few other.
But I was trying to solve a number of problems that (IMO) RAW have:
- If one side uses FP and other side don't, this means almost certain loss (assuming similar skill levels of 5D or more).
- If both sides have FPs, then it's most probable that they will keep each other in check (FP vs. FP) for as long as one side loses all FPs.
- Use of FPs introduces large number of dice to roll and sum.
- One FP due to it's power may ruin the whole adventure (as a GM I'm always afraid of it).
- FP may be (too) easily abused. One quick example: Jedi uses FP, then concentration (with doubled Control) then rolls: skillDx2+4Dx2-1D.
- Having just 5D in skill is enough to almost certainly beat Heroic difficulty.
- Use of CPs may greatly slow down character progress and 5CP for soak rule makes it only worse.
Don't get me wrong, your arguments are damn good, your answer really forced me to rethink all FP mechanics. But for now, I still think RAW are still too powerful and a bit cumbersome (and CP spending is too costly). My players don't hesitate to take advantage of loopholes and I don't want to kill them for this. I also don't see the point in (ab)using rules as a GM just because PCs do this, but I have to, to only keep the status quo.
Instead, I'd like to remove the problem by moderating FPs and reducing CP expenditure.
Side note:
SW 2nd R&E says about FPs that: "all skills, attributes and special ability die codes are doubled for the rest of that round", but concentration force power example on page 143 calculates it differently, dice are doubled after MAP is applied. Concluding form your example you'd calculate Luke's die code as 19D (6Dx2+4Dx2-1D) or maybe 15D (6Dx2+4D-1D), but not as 18D like it's in book. |
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Raven Redstar
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Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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No, I wouldn't. But, that's because I've seen force points abused as written. I've change the way they're calculated so that they keep their epic feel, but they don't get abused to the max. Luckily, my player base is filled with non-abusive players now, so I don't need to worry as much as I used to. But, I fixed that by using more homebrew enemies with smarter tactics. A player might waylay through the first 10 stormtroopers by spending a force point, but what they don't realize is that the tongue activated comlink allows them to signal their buddies a few rooms over that they need backup as a free action.
I use force points mostly as written, but I calculate them just a little differently. MAPs come out after doubling, but things like concentration bonuses don't get doubling, and I wouldn't allow something like natural armor to get doubled either. So a Barabel's natural armor will always be +2D/+1D, but their strength will get doubled.
So, for the concentration roll for Luke (I'll use the numbers you wrote)
Starship Gunnery: 6D x 2 = 12D -1D for maintaining flight control -1D for force skill roll +4D for force skill bonus = 14D. Not 18D. 14 is plenty epic for what needs to be done. Just rolled it on the pit's dice roller and got a 50, which beats the 31 heroic difficulty.
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If I were running the game, I would keep from awarding back any of their force points during the next leg of the campaign and see how they play it when they don't have access to their precious force points.
| Quote: | | They realized that when right after the combat started. But (continuing your VG terminology), this wasn't the last level, they will play the next campaign with the same characters. But of course, it's better to finish with no FPs and alive, than die with 2FPs. |
I tend to agree, as a player, but more likely than not this behavior has been reinforced by something that is being done as a GM, whether unconsciously or consciously. If at the end of the adventure, they're getting back several of their force points, it shows that they can do the combat mechanic break and get away with it. Maybe instead of fixing the mechanic, you might want to try conditioning your players out of the unwanted behavior.
Even if you didn't plan for another combat or something, it might not be a bad idea to introduce your big bad evil guy after the players have spent all their force points and character points after the battle.
The rules state that when damage is rolled, the attacking character can elect to cause a permanent wound instead of outright killing the victim. The GM decides what wound level. So your big bad guy can fry the players with force lightning and cap damage at incapacitated or mortally wounded to have them wake up in a hospital bed or something. (2nd Edition R&E Page 98)
When I read your initial post, the problem doesn't seem to me to be as much of a problem with the rules as it does with your player's play style. Changing or fixing the rules isn't going to make that problem go away. Not to mention, what will you do if you come up with a fix and your players reject the idea when you present the new rules change half way through their character's career? Will you force the rule on them or go back to the drawing board? Either way, someone is going to end up unhappy with the situation, whether it's you or them.
The point of the force point was to allow characters to shine and to give themselves a safety net when the big bad guy nailed them with a lightsaber or when their speeder is coming in for a crash landing. The spirit of the points were to give under-skilled characters the chance to make that shot into the vent port of the Deathstar.
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But, since you want to moderate expenditure, how about instead of changing the bonuses they reap, you limit the number that can be used in a particular scene, for instance a combat encounter?
If a player or NPC is limited to one force point per encounter, then you'll only have to worry about one heavy duty roll. It also means that your players will have to think about when they use the point instead of just throwing them out there like a virgin throws money away at a strip club?
As for character points, you could limit the number they spend in a single round to 2 total except for soak rolls or skill specializations which they can spend 5. So if a character specializes in Martial arts, but spent two points on his dodge already, he can only spend 3cp to boost his martial arts.
These are just rough ideas to set guidelines for expenditures.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: |
1st: Characters cannot spend character points to enhance rolls in the same round that they've used a force point. This means that a player needs to think things through before they spend a force point, because if the force point falls short of what they need, that's it. There's nothing else they can do to enhance the roll. |
Yup.. Had a Wookie spend a FP to soak an Eweb shot, and due to poor rolling still got dropped to mortally wounded. At the end of the combat, just for the heck of it, the DM asked me if i wanted to reroll using CP instead, just to see what would have happened.. Had i done it that way i would have burned 4cp and have been unwounded.
| Raven Redstar wrote: |
With that being said, you then need to take a look at the force point versus character points for soak to save your character. If a player spends a force point, they will, most likely have approximately 6 to 8D to soak damage (not including armor) for the entire round. Whereas if they spend maximum character points (5) they may have anywhere from 8 - 9D to soak damage(not including armor) for one hit. |
One of the guys i play sparks with feels if your base STR+armor is less than 5d, its more worth it to use CP to bolster your soak, than going with a FP. BUT if you are wanting to use it for more than just soaking, then go the FP route for all things (like dodge) as well as soak.
| Raven Redstar wrote: |
Another idea you could try is to just have force point expenditure cancel each other out.
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I like that idea.. similar to how i handle scale difference die adding.. Say you have 8d+2 in your star-fighter piloting and 1d maneuverability. An imperial Customs frigate is shooting you with a pair of quad laser cannons (7d+2 gunnery for the imps +2d fire control) and a pair of capital ion cannons (76d gunnery +3d fire control). Normally the player would roll 2 dodges; one at 9d+2 against the SF scale quad lasers, and another at 15d+2 against the cap ions.
Some DM's just have you roll your fighter scale dodge, then roll 6d more and add it in.
With me i give you the option that instead of that i subtract that 6d (or 4d if walkers are shooting at pcs) from the opponent's to hit pool.
Many players much prefer the latter option.
| Tupteq wrote: | | It's not easy to keep CP/FP number at moderate level. Player who spent most CPs was gathering them for improving force skills (he just didn't have time for training recently). Player having most FPs likes to hoard everything. I think that to keep FP count equally low among all PCs I had to cheat and treat players unevenly. |
Go over the rules for when/if a FP spent comes back.. Maybe you are handing out too many?
| Tupteq wrote: | Number of actions wasn't really a problem. Usually it was only two actions: attack and defense, sometimes two attacks or move and attack.
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Hm.. Most players i game with when they have 5-6d in their base combat skills and pop a FP take more than 2 actions.. heck some take 5-6.
| Tupteq wrote: | I wasn't saying that, but with FP working only for one action (not for the whole round) it's not a problem. For one action up to 2CPs or 1FP could be spent, FP and CP can't be used simultaneously in one action.
My point was that FPs are used early to take advantage, but are usually countered by FP. When there was no more FPs, then CPs are used. Sometimes NPC used FP first, sometimes it was PC. Not getting FP back for non-heroic use is a small problem compared to risk of death. |
So by your HR it seems you can spend FP in the same round as CP, just not on the same action(s).
| Tupteq wrote: | | - If one side uses FP and other side don't, this means almost certain loss (assuming similar skill levels of 5D or more). |
Not really.
Take a combat of 5 pcs against 1 major NPC. All have 6d in their combat skills. If pc 1 brawls, pc2 shoots with a blaster, pc 3 melees, and pc 4-5 do something else, that would be at least 4 actions the enemy is takiing OFF his FP'ed total in his now 12d skill. 1 to dodge 1 to parry the brawl, 1 to parry the melee and 1 for any attack he does. That right there is 3d off his stats, so it drops to 9d. Yes that 9d on average gives him 10.5 over their rolls, but its not insurmountable with 2-3 CP spent.
| Tupteq wrote: | - FP may be (too) easily abused. One quick example: Jedi uses FP, then concentration (with doubled Control) then rolls: skillDx2+4Dx2-1D.
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Incorrect.. It would be skill x2 (for being on a FP) +4d (concentration).. You would not double the concentration bonus).
And as i mentioned above, re-read the rules on when to award them. if they are spending them flippantly (IE just to save their butts) then they get none back.
| Tupteq wrote: | | - Having just 5D in skill is enough to almost certainly beat Heroic difficulty. |
How do you figure? 3.5 is the average, so with 5d you need to roll ALL 6s to make a heroic. 8d is imo the min to guarantee you always hit a heroic score.
| Tupteq wrote: | Side note:
SW 2nd R&E says about FPs that: "all skills, attributes and special ability die codes are doubled for the rest of that round", but concentration force power example on page 143 calculates it differently, dice are doubled after MAP is applied. Concluding form your example you'd calculate Luke's die code as 19D (6Dx2+4Dx2-1D) or maybe 15D (6Dx2+4D-1D), but not as 18D like it's in book. |
The book example of concentration has you add the concentration bonus into your skill before doubling, which is (as exampled before in use of melee weapons for damage etc) not how its supposed to go.. you double your skill then add it in.. So it should be 6d base skill x2 to 12d, +4d for concentration -1d for 2 actions (the concentration itself and the skill you concentrate on) for 15d.
| Raven Redstar wrote: | So, for the concentration roll for Luke (I'll use the numbers you wrote)
Starship Gunnery: 6D x 2 = 12D -1D for maintaining flight control -1D for force skill roll +4D for force skill bonus = 14D. Not 18D. 14 is plenty epic for what needs to be done. Just rolled it on the pit's dice roller and got a 50, which beats the 31 heroic difficulty. |
Which technically would have meant luke could NOT have concentrated on the shot he took as he was doing more actions than 1additional action on top of the concentration.. 1 pilot, 1 force use, 1 shooting.
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Tupteq
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Go over the rules for when/if a FP spent comes back.. Maybe you are handing out too many? |
I didn't give almost any FPs for some time, after I noticed that players conserve them - they didn't use them unless knew that will get them back (until last session, of course). Possibly I was too generous in the past 
| garhkal wrote: | | Take a combat of 5 pcs against 1 major NPC. All have 6d in their combat skills. If pc 1 brawls, pc2 shoots with a blaster, pc 3 melees, and pc 4-5 do something else, that would be at least 4 actions the enemy is takiing OFF his FP'ed total in his now 12d skill. 1 to dodge 1 to parry the brawl, 1 to parry the melee and 1 for any attack he does. That right there is 3d off his stats, so it drops to 9d. Yes that 9d on average gives him 10.5 over their rolls, but its not insurmountable with 2-3 CP spent. |
Right, but it's 5(3) vs. 1 and skill levels are the same. If NPC was a bit more powerful (8D), then his rolls would be 13D, much above players' 6D and 2-3 CPs would be not enough. Let's go further NPC is even more powerful (10D), with normal combat vs. five (6D) opponents the chances should be roughly equal, NPC had to take 3-4 actions to defend and attack at least once, reducing his skill levels to 6-7D. But when he uses FP, his dice number starts from 20D, so he can easily take 8 actions (3 defenses, 5 attacks) and still will be at 13D, and even if all five PCs used FP, they would be at 12D (before any MAP), so they could be hit unless used full defense. This is what I called a snowball effect, power of FP greatly increases with each die added. This causes a problem with balancing the game - if I balanced a combat taking into account normal skill levels, then FP puts it out of balance, because higher dice pools give better bonus from FP.
That's why I was thinking about "flattening" FP somehow.
Once again back to your example 3 vs 1 at 6D skills. If any of PC used a FP, then even FP wouldn't help NPC. PC with FP uses 11D to attack, rest PCs attack and defend at 5D, so NPC has a choice of use FP and full defense (12D) or attack once and probably get hit (4 actions, 3 defenses at 9D and one attack at 9D), if attacked PC was the one using FP, then it's 11D defense vs. 9D attack (probably no hit), if other PC is attacked, then if hit PC may use up to 5CPs to soak, so can avoid wounds. Everything is unbalanced again.
This is a paradox: few more skilled characters have no chance in combat when outnumbered by less skilled characters, but if more skilled ones use FP, then less skilled have no chances. Of course it works only for some skill ranges.
| garhkal wrote: | Incorrect.. It would be skill x2 (for being on a FP) +4d (concentration).. You would not double the concentration bonus).
And as i mentioned above, re-read the rules on when to award them. if they are spending them flippantly (IE just to save their butts) then they get none back. |
Example of concentration on page 143 SW 2nd R&E says something different. But on the other hand concentration power description says: "add +4D to any one action" and FP rules don't say about doubling actions, only doubling skills, attributes and special abilities
| garhkal wrote: | | Raven Redstar wrote: | So, for the concentration roll for Luke (I'll use the numbers you wrote)
Starship Gunnery: 6D x 2 = 12D -1D for maintaining flight control -1D for force skill roll +4D for force skill bonus = 14D. Not 18D. 14 is plenty epic for what needs to be done. Just rolled it on the pit's dice roller and got a 50, which beats the 31 heroic difficulty. |
Which technically would have meant luke could NOT have concentrated on the shot he took as he was doing more actions than 1additional action on top of the concentration.. 1 pilot, 1 force use, 1 shooting. |
Unless he was moving with cautious speed in Very Easy, Easy or Moderate terrain, because then it's a free action (SW 2nd R&E page 123). And on page 125 there's a description of starship "terrain difficulties", and we see: "Moderate (..) down the Death Star's artificial canyon"
Few more notes about my rule of doubling only one roll. I took it from D6 Space, FPs there are Fate Points (pages 56-57). This book also clarifies the way of doubling (doble before modifiers). But there's also a rule I completely ignored until now: "In the general course of play, a Fate Point is useful for one roll only. However, once per game session, a player may choose to spend a Fate Point climactically,which doubles all of the character’s rolls for that round.".
| Raven Redstar wrote: | | If I were running the game, I would keep from awarding back any of their force points during the next leg of the campaign and see how they play it when they don't have access to their precious force points. |
Good point. All PCs lost all their FPs, so the problem is solved for now. I think I'll give them one FP for finishing the campaign, but without giving back any of spent FPs (all FPs were used in non heroic way).
| Raven Redstar wrote: | | I tend to agree, as a player, but more likely than not this behavior has been reinforced by something that is being done as a GM, whether unconsciously or consciously. If at the end of the adventure, they're getting back several of their force points, it shows that they can do the combat mechanic break and get away with it. Maybe instead of fixing the mechanic, you might want to try conditioning your players out of the unwanted behavior. |
You may be right, the problem may be induced by me as a GM. I should at least try conditioning my players instead of fitting mechanics to their playing style. It may be not easy, because PCs aren't very heroic, all have some DSPs and sometimes they do bad things. This is our choice, we wanted to try playing SW in more naturalistic way. But, because of that, it will be not easy for them to gain any FPs or even get them back (unless PCs will atone).
| Raven Redstar wrote: | | The rules state that when damage is rolled, the attacking character can elect to cause a permanent wound instead of outright killing the victim. The GM decides what wound level. So your big bad guy can fry the players with force lightning and cap damage at incapacitated or mortally wounded to have them wake up in a hospital bed or something. (2nd Edition R&E Page 98) |
Yeh, I know that rule. The problem is that my players panically afraid of getting hurt, most of their spent CP/FPs was for defense/soak. But I like the idea of hurting them a bit to just show them that it's not Cyberpunk 2020 (their favorite RPG), where most of hits are deadly 
| Raven Redstar wrote: | But, since you want to moderate expenditure, how about instead of changing the bonuses they reap, you limit the number that can be used in a particular scene, for instance a combat encounter?
If a player or NPC is limited to one force point per encounter, then you'll only have to worry about one heavy duty roll. It also means that your players will have to think about when they use the point instead of just throwing them out there like a virgin throws money away at a strip club? |
Due to their fear of getting hurt, I presume that when I limit CPs use, they will keep them for soak rolls. But, I may be wrong, maybe it will change their way of thinking.
Thank you both Raven Redstar and garhkal for your comments. I'm starting to think I might give a try use of FP according to RAW, but all on your responsibility Raven Redstar . With greatly reduced number of FPs among PCs and taking more care of FP giving back and gaining rules it may work.
Problems I still see:
- Unbalancing factor of FPs - it's hard to prepare opponents that are FP proof. If opponents will be a bit too weak, then PCs using FP will get rid of them in one round (although probably not getting FP back and maybe gaining DSP), if opponents are a bit too powerful, then if they use FP, they can finish with PCs in one round.
- FPs are much more powerful for skilled characters and the disproportion raises greatly with each die added.
- CP spending moderation. Limits sound reasonable, but I'm afraid it will effectively make players to keep them only for defense/soak rolls. Maybe it's not so bad.
I'm still planning to calculate probabilities for "roll 2*n keep n" solution and maybe playtest it. This is intriguing me because of it's simplicity. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Tupteq wrote: | I didn't give almost any FPs for some time, after I noticed that players conserve them - they didn't use them unless knew that will get them back (until last session, of course). Possibly I was too generous in the past Rolling Eyes
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I've caught myself in that issue before, though not related to FP.. more for credits and CP.
| Tupteq wrote: | Right, but it's 5(3) vs. 1 and skill levels are the same. If NPC was a bit more powerful (8D), then his rolls would be 13D, much above players' 6D and 2-3 CPs would be not enough. Let's go further NPC is even more powerful (10D), with normal combat vs. five (6D) opponents the chances should be roughly equal, NPC had to take 3-4 actions to defend and attack at least once, reducing his skill levels to 6-7D. But when he uses FP, his dice number starts from 20D, so he can easily take 8 actions (3 defenses, 5 attacks) and still will be at 13D, and even if all five PCs used FP, they would be at 12D (before any MAP), so they could be hit unless used full defense. This is what I called a snowball effect, power of FP greatly increases with each die added. This causes a problem with balancing the game - if I balanced a combat taking into account normal skill levels, then FP puts it out of balance, because higher dice pools give better bonus from FP.
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This is imo one f the issues With SW d6.. unlike say ADND, or shadowrun, once someone gets up there in dice skill, they can overwhelm even lots of smaller opponents. Now for your situation, since all those enemies were dark jedi, just stay at range, so they can't use their own skills, and have to pop force powers.
| Tupteq wrote: | Unless he was moving with cautious speed in Very Easy, Easy or Moderate terrain, because then it's a free action (SW 2nd R&E page 123). And on page 125 there's a description of starship "terrain difficulties", and we see: "Moderate (..) down the Death Star's artificial canyon" Smile
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All the sources i have read for the trench run say he was going at least cruise if not full.
| Tupteq wrote: | Example of concentration on page 143 SW 2nd R&E says something different. But on the other hand concentration power description says: "add +4D to any one action" and FP rules don't say about doubling actions, only doubling skills, attributes and special abilities Smile
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Which is a croc in itself since in the combat examples, you are not doubling your natural armor (which would be a special skill), nor claw/bite damage, just the strength.. So they need to have clarified what
:counts: as that special ability.
| Tupteq wrote: | - CP spending moderation. Limits sound reasonable, but I'm afraid it will effectively make players to keep them only for defense/soak rolls. Maybe it's not so bad.
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Well BTB you get to spend 5 on rolls that are life threatening or for specialties.. So start having enemies use NON life threatening weapons on them.. Stun shot, gas grenades, nets, glop grenades.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Due to their fear of getting hurt, I presume that when I limit CPs use, they will keep them for soak rolls. But, I may be wrong, maybe it will change their way of thinking.
Thank you both Raven Redstar and garhkal for your comments. I'm starting to think I might give a try use of FP according to RAW, but all on your responsibility Raven Redstar Smile. With greatly reduced number of FPs among PCs and taking more care of FP giving back and gaining rules it may work. |
You're welcome, I really hope that you manage to figure out a solution to the problem, I've been in your shoes and I ended up having to not run for the players any longer to escape the purposeful game breaking tactics, although with my better handle on the rules, I can adapt a little more quickly to nip the problem before it becomes a problem.
One of my players combined my interest in the optional martial arts rules from Rules of Engagement: combining a spin kick with a force point to try to kick down a blast door. Nowadays, I'd give the blast door scale to stop that sort of behavior, but he was just doing it to try to undermine the game. Which he seemed to do in every game he played as a player.
| Quote: | Problems I still see:
- Unbalancing factor of FPs - it's hard to prepare opponents that are FP proof. If opponents will be a bit too weak, then PCs using FP will get rid of them in one round (although probably not getting FP back and maybe gaining DSP), if opponents are a bit too powerful, then if they use FP, they can finish with PCs in one round.
- FPs are much more powerful for skilled characters and the disproportion raises greatly with each die added.
- CP spending moderation. Limits sound reasonable, but I'm afraid it will effectively make players to keep them only for defense/soak rolls. Maybe it's not so bad.
I'm still planning to calculate probabilities for "roll 2*n keep n" solution and maybe playtest it. This is intriguing me because of it's simplicity. |
Yes, those are all problems with force points as they are. I think the writers were hoping that their game system would appeal more to those interested in storytelling and cinematic drama than to munchkin power gamers who try to break the game at every turn and spoil the drama by steamrolling the encounters.
The double/keep method might work to your advantage since a 5D skill has a better chance of hitting 30 with a force point than without. But I still think you'll be stuck with the same snowball effect, it just won't pick up speed as quickly, not to mention, it still should be possible for a 5D skill to hit heroic with a force point, because that's why the mechanic was put in place.
What if you do 2*n keep n, +1 per discarded die? That way, best case for a 5D force point is 35.
Character points are meant to be that little safety net to help push a player's roll over if they're in a situation that may cause imminent death, so it would make sense that players hold on to their CP instead of spending them frivolously. Not to mention that it takes away from character advancement, which I suppose is punishment enough as it is.
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, that's exactly how my players/PCs spend their CPs. They save them for defensive actions (mostly), and also use them for advancement with skills and such.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: |
One of my players combined my interest in the optional martial arts rules from Rules of Engagement: combining a spin kick with a force point to try to kick down a blast door. Nowadays, I'd give the blast door scale to stop that sort of behavior, but he was just doing it to try to undermine the game. Which he seemed to do in every game he played as a player. |
heard of someone who played a wookie pop a FP and call the dark side to quad up so he "could rip the leg off an AT-AT'.. IMo though the 'dice should say its possible' whether using scaling up or scale die, there SHOULD be some sort of issue.. the human (or wookie) body can only take so much force into something. So say your player did that. i would say it would be reasonable to then have him roll soak for his leg he kicked with with the doors "body" rating being the incoming damage against him.
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Player had 4D strength, so 4Dx2 = 8D +3D damage for spin kick, meaning he was chucking out 11D damage. I suppose I could have had him roll his 8D soak separately. But, a walker scale blast door is still only a soak of 10D so theoretically someone could if the soak roll was bad enough, kick through a blast door.
Although I just rolled it out on the pit dice roller and got:
11D damage roll: 44
10D soak roll: 44
8D soak roll: 31
13 points of damage is mortally wounded, isn't it? Ouch, broken leg, compound fracture, or maybe just a broken foot, good luck trying to escape from prison when you've broken your foot. Half movement anyone?
Sometimes I wish I were a little meaner. That would have been something that would have dissuaded FP abuse.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:14 am Post subject: |
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Well, yes he could kick through it, but what is he going to do now he has a hole in it?
And where are you getting Str+3d damage for spin kick?
Are you adding the +1d into the base kick (Str+2d)?
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