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garhkal
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 Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:53 am Post subject: |
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Agreed.. I just can't wrap my mind around giving non force sensitives a D of force attribute..
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Based on the mounting evidence in the canon and EU that the Force guides the Jedi's actions regardless of what sort of weapon he is using, I did away with LSC almost altogether by folding it into Combat Sense. Rather than using the flat +2D bonus from Combat Sense, the bonus is equal to either 2D or the skill level of the character with the weapon he is using in combination with combat sense, whichever is higher. This ability can only be used with Dex skills (I've folded Brawling into Dex while still using Str for damage rolls), but I'm using another ability called Pilot Sense that applies the same rules to space combat. |
I think we are in agreement here. It looks like the Jedi ccan use the Force to enhance any fighting ability. The lightsaber is prefferred, proably due to some of the reasons mentioned by Kenobi-but Jedi are dangerous with other weapons as well.
I am toning the bonus down from LSC, though, partly becuase it seems to be a better fit to the source, and partly for better gameplay. Generally speaking an advance of 4D or more is pretty much a foregone conclusion, and as long as Jedi can routinely get such an edge the Jedi problem will remain in the RPG.
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As far as the 1D Force attribute for non-FS characters is concerned, IMO, that requires a bit too much of a rule change for me. I would say having non-FS at 0D works better because you don't have to change any of the beginning Attribute dice on the templates to fit; all characters still have the same basic beginning dice as described in the rules. In addition, it works better when upgrading a non-FS to FS. Simply say that the CP cost to upgrade is what it takes to change the 0D Force attribute to 1D, then go from there as normal. Remember that, like all the other attributes, 1D Force would be the base from which all other skills are built upon. Giving them 1D to start with implies that they already have some inate sensitivity to the Force (above and beyond CPs and FPs), so since they already have 1D, all they would need is someone to teach them how to use it. |
I look at it this way. All living beings have some connection to the Force, so they should have some rating in it. No do Iconsider 1D to imply senstivity. Force Sensitivity is something WEG made up. No one ever says somebody is "Force Sensitive" in the films. Sometimes somebody is said to be "strong in the Force", but the phase is used in such a way that it could mean aptitude and/or training. Force Sensitive is pretty useless in D6 anyway.
WEG used Force Sensitivity to separate those who were strong in the force from the rest, but with a FORCE attribute, we don't need Force Sensitive? anymore. |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | I look at it this way. All living beings have some connection to the Force, so they should have some rating in it. No do Iconsider 1D to imply senstivity. Force Sensitivity is something WEG made up. No one ever says somebody is "Force Sensitive" in the films. Sometimes somebody is said to be "strong in the Force", but the phase is used in such a way that it could mean aptitude and/or training. Force Sensitive is pretty useless in D6 anyway.
WEG used Force Sensitivity to separate those who were strong in the force from the rest, but with a FORCE attribute, we don't need Force Sensitive? anymore. |
I agree that a Force Attribute replaces Force Sensitive, and you are also correct that the actual words "Force Sensitive" do not appear in the films. However, the idea behind it remains. If you look at how the Jedi selected potential candidates from across the galaxy, they were looking for an innate sensitivity, but not everyone they selected went on to become a Jedi. Many ended up in the Jedi Service Corps, likely with a basic level of skill in the Force that would allow them to perform basic tasks. But not everyone got selected, because not everyone had that innate sensitivity.
When I make house rules, I try to avoid conflicting with the RAW unless I feel the RAW gets it completely wrong. In this case, with regard to skills, it is simpler to make the house rule conform to the RAW than it is to write up an exception. Per the RAW, all living beings have atleast some access to the Force, but this is represented by the CP and FP rules. A Force attribute would exist solely as a basis for Force skills and abilities, and by giving everyone a minimum of 1D, you are giving all living beings the automatic innate sensitivity that would allow them to learn Force skills (per the RAW). After all, even NPCs with a paltry 1D in any of the other six attributes can still learn skills in that attribute, even if their advancement in those skills will be rather stunted.
IMO, it is simpler and less complicated to make non-FS characters start at 0D, then make them pay the 20 CP cost to upgrade to 1D (rather than 20 points to change from No to Yes on the Force Sensitive? line). It takes the canon idea that not everyone has that innate talent in the Force and applies it to the RAW without requiring an exception or a rewrite.
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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I wrote this up a while back:
| me wrote: |
: Characters may be made Force Sensitive with the expenditure of at least 1 Attribute die into the Force Sensitive ability
---- Only Attribute dice may be used to increase Force Sensitive at character creation; Skill dice may not be used (though they may be used for individual Force Powers)
---- Non-Force Sensitives may become Force Sensitive (1D) for 20CP in game.
.: Force Sensitive behaves as an Attribute for Force use
---- Advancement of Force Sensitive ability at Advanced Skill costs (xD+y -> xD+(y+1) requires 2x CP)
---- Advancement of Force Sensitive without an instructor requires 3x standard skill advancement cost (3x xD => xD+1)
.: Force Powers are skills of the Force Sensitive ability
---- Advancement of Power die codes conducted at specialization cost
---- Advancement of Power die code without an instructor conducted at standard skill cost
---- Force Powers with prerequisites require 2D invested in the prerequisite Powers before they can be trained
---- Starting Skill dice may be allocated to Force Powers at character creation at standard Skill costs (1D => 1D)
.: A Teacher must have at least 3D in Force Sensitive or a Power. They must also have at least 3D above the student's current ability to be teach.
.: Force Powers requiring more than one of the standard Force Skills (C/S/A) have their difficulties set as the highest of the Force Skills listed in their descriptions.
.: Force Powers may be used untrained
---- Force Powers without prerequisites simply use the Force Sensitive ability
---- Force Powers with prerequisites may be attempted at +5 difficulty for the first missing prerequisite, compounded by +2 for each additional missing prerequisite power
---- All Untrained Force Power use subject to GM approval
---- Force Sensitives WITHOUT knowledge of the Force (ie. an introduction to Jedi training, etc) CANNOT attempt any Force Powers consciously! Force Sensitive may be used, at GM discretion, to sense "tremors" in the Force or otherwise augment the characters in a story appropriate manner; a coincidental push to help them succeed in critical moments, etc. |
And since LSC in particular needed tweaking for use in the Force Attribute system:
| Ankhanu wrote: | Lightsaber Combat actually needs some extra tweaking as well, since I've changed the way the Force Skills work.
By RAW, once active you add your Sense dice to your Lightsaber skill rolls to attack/defend and you add or subtract your Control Dice from the weapon's damage.
For example, a character with Lightsaber 5D+2 (Damage 5D), Control 4D, Sense 3D, once LSC was raised, they would roll 8D+2 for their attack roll (5D+2 + 3D) and when they hit, can roll anywhere from 1D to 9D damage by adding and subtracting any/all of their 4D in Control to/from the base lightsaber damage (5D +/- 4D).
Obviously this doesn't work where there is not Control or Sense Razz
My gut reaction is that you would use your Lightsaber Combat skill as a total dice pool to split between controlling your attack/defense and controlling the amount of damage you do.
For example, let's look at the same character, with Force Sensitive 3D and Lightsaber Combat 6D, and they still have a Lightsaber skill of 5D+2.
They can choose to split up the 6D of Lightsaber Combat any way they choose between attack/defense and damage. Let's say they're feeling like an even split is wise, they can put 3D to attack/defense and 3D to damage, rolling 8D+2 to attack/defend and anywhere from 2D - 8D damage (5D +/- 3D). Alternatively, they could use all 6D to either action and 0D to the other, so up to 11D+2 (5D+2 + 6D) to attack with 5D (5D + 0) damage, to 5D+2 to attack/defense and 0D - 11D damage (5D +/- 6D).
To deflect a blaster bolt back at a target would follow the same principle, split LSC between your defense roll and the remainder would be used to aim your shot (ie. be treated like a Blaster roll to shoot). Let's go with the even split again; our Jedi would defend against the blaster bolt with 8D+2, and aim/shoot the bolt back at 3D.
I think that should work  Oddly enough, when I did test the Force Attribute, Lightsaber Combat never came up, so I just had to rule that on the fly. |
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mcbobbo
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Joined: 12 Mar 2012
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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I did this sort of thing years back for a free-form d6 game, and generally loved how it worked out. I'm dusting it off for a maptool game with some of those same players.
One thing that I'd do, though, is consolidate the skills. Attributes are pretty expensive, so that investment should carry some measurable benefit. I might leave Sense as skill entirely, but I'd split Alter out as telekinisis, stat augmentation, and force lightning. Same as suggested above with LSC... |
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Rimmer
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:35 am Post subject: |
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Just wanting to throw this thought out there.
In regards to having a seventh attribute "Force" or whatever and having C, S and A as advanced skills based of "Force" and the old LSC power.
You still roll your C and S as usual for the power, but your "Force" attribute is the one you add to Skill rolls and Damage rolls not C and S. Depending on how well you rolled for your C and S, for every say 10 points you beat the difficulty by you get to add a further 1D to your "Force" attribute ?
Also as an idea, instead of adding "Force" to both skill rolls and damage, you have to split between the two ?
Anyway, just my 2c worth as it were, feel free to trash the idea. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| mcbobbo wrote: | | One thing that I'd do, though, is consolidate the skills. Attributes are pretty expensive, so that investment should carry some measurable benefit. I might leave Sense as skill entirely, but I'd split Alter out as telekinisis, stat augmentation, and force lightning. |
That could actually be a really good fix, splitting Alter based on general power categories. The catagory names would need some refinement, though.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Rimmer wrote: | Just wanting to throw this thought out there.
In regards to having a seventh attribute "Force" or whatever and having C, S and A as advanced skills based of "Force" and the old LSC power.
You still roll your C and S as usual for the power, but your "Force" attribute is the one you add to Skill rolls and Damage rolls not C and S. Depending on how well you rolled for your C and S, for every say 10 points you beat the difficulty by you get to add a further 1D to your "Force" attribute ?
Also as an idea, instead of adding "Force" to both skill rolls and damage, you have to split between the two ?
Anyway, just my 2c worth as it were, feel free to trash the idea. |
I like this idea. IAnd it is a lot like STR and melee weapons. If we assume that FCE is not affected by MAPs the way STR isn't (for damage) then we could open up LSC to work with other weapons and see Jed being able to use the force with any weapon like we see on screen. t might work well for a lot of powers, not just LSC. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:54 am Post subject: |
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So, what are some practical applications for a Force attribute? In the prequels, Anakin is shown to be using the Force instinctively to enhance his piloting skills. What would be a good rule allowing FS characters to apply their Force attribute to their other skills and attributes without being over the top?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Wouldn't that just be enhance attribute?
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | So, what are some practical applications for a Force attribute? In the prequels, Anakin is shown to be using the Force instinctively to enhance his piloting skills. What would be a good rule allowing FS characters to apply their Force attribute to their other skills and attributes without being over the top? |
Basically it would mean adding the FCE stat (or some part of it) to another stat. As long as the FCE stat is along the same scale as the other stats, the bonus won't be overpowering. MAPS would help with bonuses that are "kept" up.
For example, if Jedi Joe Average with a FCE of 2D wanted to boost his MEC for piloting, he would end up with only a 1D bonus. Hardly killer. But somebody very strong in the Force (FCE 4D) would get a 3D bonus. Of course the character who puts 4D into his FCE attribute will have fewer dice to spend on his other attributes.
Liniking the bonus to the FCE stat also helps to cap the bonuses from powers like LSC. TO get a really high bonus the character will have to work on his FCE attribute.
Alternately, the bonus could be a flat add, not rolled. A flat add isn't as powerful as rolling a lot of dice, but does allow the Jedi to be consistently good at something. It would also help when dealing with the wild die. In some ways, a +10 bonus can be better than +3D. A guy with a flat +10 isn"t going to cut himself with his own lightsaber on a bad die roll.
| Esoomian wrote: | | Wouldn't that just be enhance attribute? |
Similar, but with EA, the bonus is tied to the character's skill roll-not to their strength with Force. As far as the RPG's mechanics go it is all a matter of the characters skill code. The mechanics don't differentiate between someone who is strong with the Force and someone who is highly trained. With an Attribute, someone like Yoda or Anakin will get more of a bonus than someone like Obi-wan. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | Wouldn't that just be enhance attribute? |
I would say no, for two reasons. First, as far as I understand the RAW in this situation, using EA requires that the character be trained in its use, as opposed to characters who have no training in the Force beyond their natural aptitude for it, which would be the case for characters who have a high Force attribute, with no training in how to use it.
Secondly, EA as written works only on the character's physical and mental abilities, not supernatural premonitions and the like. In TPM, Qui-Gon specifically said that Anakin could see things before they happen, which is why he appeared to have such quick reflexes. An accurate write-up for a power like that would be a Sense power, not Control like EA.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:04 am Post subject: |
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True, the films DID seem to indicate that basic aspects of the force do enhance people's natural skills somewhat, but what are you suggesting?>
Add say +1 to each attribute for every full D in the force? If so, then that seriously powers up jedi.. Take say one at 5d/5d/4d+2.. That's 14D in force abilities which is +14 for every roll, effectively giving them 4 more dice.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | True, the films DID seem to indicate that basic aspects of the force do enhance people's natural skills somewhat, but what are you suggesting?>
Add say +1 to each attribute for every full D in the force? If so, then that seriously powers up jedi.. Take say one at 5d/5d/4d+2.. That's 14D in force abilities which is +14 for every roll, effectively giving them 4 more dice. |
No, no, you are missing the FORCE attribute. It will be the attribue that you add, instead of the skill code. All effects will be based on the charactewr's FCE attribue. So sombody with a FCE of 2D will get more powerful effects than somone with a FCE of 1D.
So it won't "power up: the Jedi.
For example, let's look at Telekinesis. According to the RAW, a character's ability to lift using TK is simply tied to his Alter skill. Yet on screen, there does seem to be a matter of inate power or "Force Strength" involved.
What I was thinking of was tying the mass lifted (and probably the speed) to the character's FCE attribute. Rather than having a starting mass of up to 10kg, it could be 5kg per D in FCE. That way somebody with a good FCE attribute could lift move (and move an object faster). |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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So rather than roll, they get a flat out result?
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