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Newtonian Space movement
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:59 pm    Post subject: Newtonian Space movement Reply with quote

Some new rules for simplified Newtonian movement covering space combat and a few atmospheric movement rules. I've been threatening to release... I'd like your thoughts, suggestions, and other input. Questions are also welcome, especially since I haven't quite figured out a clear way to describe some of the concepts here...
    Newtonian Space Movement:

    Ships:

    The "Space" rating of a starship is both the maximum speed a ship can travel at and still maintain full control, and the rate at which it accelerates. A ship can accelerate or decelerate by its space rating in a single turn, adding or subtracting its acceleration to its speed from the previous round. A ship's speed is limited only by the time it spends accelerating.

    For example, a standard Corellian Stardrives CR90 Corvette, has a space rating of 6. Travelling full speed ahead, a CR90 can move 6 space units in one turn, a total of 18 units in two turns, and a total of 36 units in three turns. In the given rounds the speed of the ship is as follows: Round 1 - 6 space units per turn, Round 2 - 12 space units per turn, round 3 - 18 space units per turn. Deceleration is likewise. If the CR90 chooses to slow to a stop after three turns, it will take 3 turns to come to a full stop, with a total distance traveled while decelerating of 18 space units.

    A difficulty level is added to all maneuvers for each additional turn a ship spends accelerating. An X-wing, with a space rating of 8, that has been accelerating for two turns will be travelling at 16 space units per turn. Any maneuvers the pilot attempts will be one level more difficult. If the X-wing is travelling at 24 space units per turn, any maneuver will be two levels more difficult, and so on. Reducing speed for a maneuver reduces the difficulty one level.

    In an atmosphere, a ship's space rating becomes an absolute speed. A space rating of 1 equals a speed level of 100 meters per second, 2 equals 200 meters per second, and so on. A spacecraft in an atmosphere cannot accelerate past its speed rating, but it can enter an atmosphere moving faster than its speed limit. It will slow to its speed limit at a rate of one speed level per turn, or two levels per turn if the pilot brakes. An unshielded ship travelling faster than one speed level takes 1D damage per level each turn, due to surface heating. A ship travelling above one speed level may use aerodynamics to make maneuvers at normal difficulty, but the hull takes 1D damage per speed level above one due to G loading. If the pilot wishes, the maneuver can also be made at the increased difficulty to avoid the maneuvering damage.

    Projectiles:

    Weapons such as proton torpedoes and concussion missiles are also carried forward by inertia. They generally have short thrust phases in which they can accelerate and maneuver, followed by a ballistic and unguided phase. Each warhead has an acceleration rating and a thrust phase rating. When a warhead is fired, it moves forward at its original launch velocity plus it's acceleration rating, and continues to accelerate for the duration of its thrust phase. After it runs out of thrust, it continues in its original direction at its highest speed.

    For example, a concussion missile may have an acceleration rating of 15 and a thrust phase of 2 rounds. If it is fired from a ship moving steadily forward at 10 space units per turn, it will have a speed of 25 in the first turn and 40 in the second. After it runs out of thrust, it will continue at a speed of 40 space units per second. At the end of the thrust phase, the warhead will have outpaced the craft that fired it by 45 space units.

    For each turn a projectile is unpowered, the target gets +1D to evade. Furthermore, the initial difficulty to hit with an unpowered projectile increases by 1 level per turn of unpowered flight time required to reach the target. A starfighter scale craft may that makes a full evasion while a projectile is in unpowered flight cannot be hit by that projectile.

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Ankhanu
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Newtonian Space movement Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
Some new rules for simplified Newtonian movement covering space combat and a few atmospheric movement rules. I've been threatening to release... I'd like your thoughts, suggestions, and other input. Questions are also welcome, especially since I haven't quite figured out a clear way to describe some of the concepts here...

This is a tough one to develop simple, D6ish rules for... Let's take a look Wink

Fallon Kell wrote:
[list]Newtonian Space Movement:

Ships:

The "Space" rating of a starship is both the maximum speed a ship can travel at and still maintain full control, and the rate at which it accelerates. A ship can accelerate or decelerate by its space rating in a single turn, adding or subtracting its acceleration to its speed from the previous round. A ship's speed is limited only by the time it spends accelerating.

For example, a standard Corellian Stardrives CR90 Corvette, has a space rating of 6. Travelling full speed ahead, a CR90 can move 6 space units in one turn, a total of 18 units in two turns, and a total of 36 units in three turns. In the given rounds the speed of the ship is as follows: Round 1 - 6 space units per turn, Round 2 - 12 space units per turn, round 3 - 18 space units per turn. Deceleration is likewise. If the CR90 chooses to slow to a stop after three turns, it will take 3 turns to come to a full stop, with a total distance traveled while decelerating of 18 space units.

A difficulty level is added to all maneuvers for each additional turn a ship spends accelerating. An X-wing, with a space rating of 8, that has been accelerating for two turns will be travelling at 16 space units per turn. Any maneuvers the pilot attempts will be one level more difficult. If the X-wing is travelling at 24 space units per turn, any maneuver will be two levels more difficult, and so on. Reducing speed for a maneuver reduces the difficulty one level.

This makes sense.

Fallon Kell wrote:
[list]
In an atmosphere, a ship's space rating becomes an absolute speed. A space rating of 1 equals a speed level of 100 meters per second, 2 equals 200 meters per second, and so on. A spacecraft in an atmosphere cannot accelerate past its speed rating, but it can enter an atmosphere moving faster than its speed limit. It will slow to its speed limit at a rate of one speed level per turn, or two levels per turn if the pilot brakes. An unshielded ship travelling faster than one speed level takes 1D damage per level each turn, due to surface heating. A ship travelling above one speed level may use aerodynamics to make maneuvers at normal difficulty, but the hull takes 1D damage per speed level above one due to G loading. If the pilot wishes, the maneuver can also be made at the increased difficulty to avoid the maneuvering damage.

Not sure I like the idea of the Space move directly equating to atmosphere speed. Some ships are much better suited to atmospheric flight than others... an X-Wing, for example, would be expected to perform better (more akin to its space flight characters) than something blockier, like a Ghtroc freighter in atmosphere, which would likely perform much better in space than in atmosphere.
Having separate atmosphere and space speed/performance characters is prudent, I think.

Fallon Kell wrote:
[list]Projectiles:

... After it runs out of thrust, it continues in its original direction at its highest speed.

I assume you mean its last powered trajectory, rather than the original trajectory?
The other parts make sense.

Fallon Kell wrote:
    For each turn a projectile is unpowered, the target gets +1D to evade. Furthermore, the initial difficulty to hit with an unpowered projectile increases by 1 level per turn of unpowered flight time required to reach the target. A starfighter scale craft may that makes a full evasion while a projectile is in unpowered flight cannot be hit by that projectile.

Cool... though I'd likely axe the automatic evasion bit. I like chance Wink
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Newtonian Space movement Reply with quote

Ankhanu wrote:
Fallon Kell wrote:
Some new rules for simplified Newtonian movement covering space combat and a few atmospheric movement rules. I've been threatening to release... I'd like your thoughts, suggestions, and other input. Questions are also welcome, especially since I haven't quite figured out a clear way to describe some of the concepts here...

This is a tough one to develop simple, D6ish rules for... Let's take a look Wink

Fallon Kell wrote:
Newtonian Space Movement:

Ships:

The "Space" rating of a starship is both the maximum speed a ship can travel at and still maintain full control, and the rate at which it accelerates. A ship can accelerate or decelerate by its space rating in a single turn, adding or subtracting its acceleration to its speed from the previous round. A ship's speed is limited only by the time it spends accelerating.

For example, a standard Corellian Stardrives CR90 Corvette, has a space rating of 6. Travelling full speed ahead, a CR90 can move 6 space units in one turn, a total of 18 units in two turns, and a total of 36 units in three turns. In the given rounds the speed of the ship is as follows: Round 1 - 6 space units per turn, Round 2 - 12 space units per turn, round 3 - 18 space units per turn. Deceleration is likewise. If the CR90 chooses to slow to a stop after three turns, it will take 3 turns to come to a full stop, with a total distance traveled while decelerating of 18 space units.

A difficulty level is added to all maneuvers for each additional turn a ship spends accelerating. An X-wing, with a space rating of 8, that has been accelerating for two turns will be travelling at 16 space units per turn. Any maneuvers the pilot attempts will be one level more difficult. If the X-wing is travelling at 24 space units per turn, any maneuver will be two levels more difficult, and so on. Reducing speed for a maneuver reduces the difficulty one level.

This makes sense.

Fallon Kell wrote:

In an atmosphere, a ship's space rating becomes an absolute speed. A space rating of 1 equals a speed level of 100 meters per second, 2 equals 200 meters per second, and so on. A spacecraft in an atmosphere cannot accelerate past its speed rating, but it can enter an atmosphere moving faster than its speed limit. It will slow to its speed limit at a rate of one speed level per turn, or two levels per turn if the pilot brakes. An unshielded ship travelling faster than one speed level takes 1D damage per level each turn, due to surface heating. A ship travelling above one speed level may use aerodynamics to make maneuvers at normal difficulty, but the hull takes 1D damage per speed level above one due to G loading. If the pilot wishes, the maneuver can also be made at the increased difficulty to avoid the maneuvering damage.

Not sure I like the idea of the Space move directly equating to atmosphere speed. Some ships are much better suited to atmospheric flight than others... an X-Wing, for example, would be expected to perform better (more akin to its space flight characters) than something blockier, like a Ghtroc freighter in atmosphere, which would likely perform much better in space than in atmosphere.
Having separate atmosphere and space speed/performance characters is prudent, I think.
For ships known to perform better or worse in an atmosphere, you would simply add a notation like "Speed:6 (-2 in atmosphere)". That said, it's not a critical component, it's just the easiest way to apply the Newtonian principals to atmospheric flight
Ankhanu wrote:

Fallon Kell wrote:
Projectiles:

... After it runs out of thrust, it continues in its original direction at its highest speed.

I assume you mean its last powered trajectory, rather than the original trajectory?
The other parts make sense.
Yes! That's exactly what I meant. Thank you for helping me to clarify.
Ankhanu wrote:

Fallon Kell wrote:
For each turn a projectile is unpowered, the target gets +1D to evade. Furthermore, the initial difficulty to hit with an unpowered projectile increases by 1 level per turn of unpowered flight time required to reach the target. A starfighter scale craft may that makes a full evasion while a projectile is in unpowered flight cannot be hit by that projectile.

Cool... though I'd likely axe the automatic evasion bit. I like chance Wink
I was a little wary of that too, but I couldn't shake the question of how a target ship could make a right angle turn, and have a ballistic projectile still hit. Especially if the projectile has to fly for another 5 or 10 seconds after the turn.

Also, some suggested stats:
    Proton Torpedoes:
    Acceleration: 10
    Thrust Duration: 2 rounds
    Damage: 9D starfighter, 7D capital
    (total range from stationary launch: 30)

    Concussion Missiles:
    Acceleration: 15
    Thrust Duration: 2 rounds
    Damage: 7D starfighter scale
    (total range from stationary launch: 45)

    Assault Concussion Missile:
    Acceleration: 10
    Duration: 3 rounds
    Damage: 9D Capital scale
    (total range from stationary launch: 60)

    Assault Proton Torpedoes:
    Acceleration: 5
    Duration: 5 rounds
    Damage: 6D Capital Scale
    (total range from stationary launch: 75)

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Ankhanu
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Newtonian Space movement Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:
Cool... though I'd likely axe the automatic evasion bit. I like chance Wink
I was a little wary of that too, but I couldn't shake the question of how a target ship could make a right angle turn, and have a ballistic projectile still hit. Especially if the projectile has to fly for another 5 or 10 seconds after the turn.

Yeah, that wasn't on my mind, rather that same round sort of instance. Further out, yeah, you move you're simply not in the line of fire. It makes sense further out, less when the impact is imminent.

Perhaps just use a Wild die to check for complication, otherwise it's an automatic dodge??
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Newtonian Space movement Reply with quote

Ankhanu wrote:
Fallon Kell wrote:
Ankhanu wrote:
Cool... though I'd likely axe the automatic evasion bit. I like chance Wink
I was a little wary of that too, but I couldn't shake the question of how a target ship could make a right angle turn, and have a ballistic projectile still hit. Especially if the projectile has to fly for another 5 or 10 seconds after the turn.

Yeah, that wasn't on my mind, rather that same round sort of instance. Further out, yeah, you move you're simply not in the line of fire. It makes sense further out, less when the impact is imminent.

Perhaps just use a Wild die to check for complication, otherwise it's an automatic dodge??
Maybe... I tend to try and avoid using the wild die like that, though.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are tracking locations, then once the evading ship moves out of the line of fire the unpowered missile would just miss since their paths would no longer intersect. Note this is similar to character scale combat where a character moves behind solid cover and can no longer be hit. No dodge needed.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
If you are tracking locations, then once the evading ship moves out of the line of fire the unpowered missile would just miss since their paths would no longer intersect. Note this is similar to character scale combat where a character moves behind solid cover and can no longer be hit. No dodge needed.
Well, if you make a major course correction for the purpose of not getting hit, I call that an evasion...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, but it isn't a piloting roll (or dodge) to evade. It is just moving out of the line of fire.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Sure, but it isn't a piloting roll (or dodge) to evade. It is just moving out of the line of fire.

Character scale I'd still have a dodge roll, to see if they move out of the way in time. Sometimes you're simply too slow.
But, when multiple rounds are involved, yeah, basic movement is sufficient.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall this looks pretty good to me, just ask Bren Wink

My reservations are the same as Ankhanu's. Mostly, I like to keep atmphereic speed. Maybe use 1/4 kph speed to some sort of sclae (like 100kph = 1 unit).

As for "unpowerred" proectiles, I7d think that they probably would miss thier target unless the target was very close of stopped dead. Practially any change i course would be successful at the distances involved in pace combat. A 1 degree course alteration over a distance of 100 km will put the target over 1km out of the way.

Why not just increase the flight time a little and say a unpowerred missile simply misses the target?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
Why not just increase the flight time a little and say a unpowerred missile simply misses the target?
You might want them to explode when they are no longer powered or after say 1 round of unpowered flight. Otherwise you have misses hurtling around the system until they eventually impact something. For fire at predicatable targets e.g. space stations, the techs could disable the autodestruct to lengthen the unpowered range.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
You might want them to explode when they are no longer powered or after say 1 round of unpowered flight. Otherwise you have misses hurtling around the system until they eventually impact something. For fire at predicatable targets e.g. space stations, the techs could disable the autodestruct to lengthen the unpowered range.
Where's the fun in that? Laughing Yeah, most projectile weapons with guidance systems have fusing to cause a warhead to detonate as it passes a target it can't hit, or to just explode once it's clear it wont hit. I just figure it would be reasonable to have a proton torpedo continue on for 10 or 20 seconds unpowered, and still have a shot at hitting an ISD. A detonate-on-miss rule makes a lot of sense to me, though.

As far as the evasions of ballistic projectiles, I see your points. Since I view starfighter combat happening at vastly slower speeds than most (or maybe all) people here, I plan to run my rules as posted, but since that's of little help to you guys, I'm happy to discuss the application of these rules to high-speed combat.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
As far as the evasions of ballistic projectiles, I see your points. Since I view starfighter combat happening at vastly slower speeds than most (or maybe all) people here, I plan to run my rules as posted, but since that's of little help to you guys, I'm happy to discuss the application of these rules to high-speed combat.
The problem isn't one of high speed vs. low speed. If a missile runs for three rounds (or more) in unpowered flight to reach the target, then the target has three rounds (or more) to move away from it's current position. That is three turns worth of movement. If the ship moves, say space: 4 that is at least 12 space units (whatever they are) of movement away from the path of the missile. Unless the blast radius is large compared to movement e.g. 6+ space units (or more), the missile won't detonate in range of the target.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, speed really ins't the issue.

For example, if a ship acclerates at 1G for a round (5 seconds), it can change it's position by by about 125 meters. which is more than enough to get it off the flight path of an unpowered object. Now we all agree that starfighters must br able to accelerate at more than 1G, so our differences in how fast the ships can accelerate isn't really an issue.

About the only exceptions I can see are:

1) If the misile if right on top of (within 1 SU) of the target, limiting the target's response time.

2) If the target is dead in space, and can't move out of the way.

3) if the target is really big and can7t get it's entire bulk out of the way. For instance, the Death Star is a pretty much a sure thing.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Fallon Kell wrote:
As far as the evasions of ballistic projectiles, I see your points. Since I view starfighter combat happening at vastly slower speeds than most (or maybe all) people here, I plan to run my rules as posted, but since that's of little help to you guys, I'm happy to discuss the application of these rules to high-speed combat.
The problem isn't one of high speed vs. low speed. If a missile runs for three rounds (or more) in unpowered flight to reach the target, then the target has three rounds (or more) to move away from it's current position. That is three turns worth of movement. If the ship moves, say space: 4 that is at least 12 space units (whatever they are) of movement away from the path of the missile. Unless the blast radius is large compared to movement e.g. 6+ space units (or more), the missile won't detonate in range of the target.

The blast radius doesn't have to be all that large, if the target is large enough. At the distance I use for a space unit, ISDs and VSDs are too slow in comparison to their size to get out of the way in a round or two.
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