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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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 Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Like google maps driving directions, probably complete with instructions to drive over unpaved logging roads |
Or kayak to Hawaii, then on to Tokyo. (Try googling Seattle to Tokyo with walking directions.) |
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:30 am Post subject: |
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My apologies for raising this thread from the dead, but the topic is actually what brought me to this forum. I also noticed the Astrogation Site, which is linked from this forum's links page. While impressive for what it has started doing, I suspect that it is a little out of date. Is 'Nathan' still working on it? What are/were his methods? Do they have any relationship with what has been published for the EU?
I certainly respect the idea that space travel goes at the speed of plot, but I do think there has to be somewhat of a baseline that makes sense. Also, I guess the inner geek is interested in the intellectual puzzle.
I'm also not a computer programmer, but I've been thinking about the conceptuals of doing exactly what Barrataria is suggesting. It seems to require several things:
1. Generating a list of systems. The index in the Essential Atlas is some 4400 systems/planets long, but, to my knowledge, is not available in such an electronic format as can be copied and pasted into a database or spreadsheet. I did pull a list from the .pdf file available here. But the squares seem to be a little off from what we know elsewhere (the Essential Atlas & Wookieepedia). It is nevertheless a list of 687 systems/planets, which is considerable.
2. Developing at least a conceptual of the to-be-modeled mechanics of Astrogation. What are the different factors involved?
I think there are several factors:
1. Distance by way of hyperroutes
2. Type of hyperroute(s) traveled (which ZzaphodD already mentioned)
3. Hyperdrive class of the starship in question (no-brainer)
4. level of success of the Astrogation and/or the availability of superior nav-computers databases, such as the Wookiee maps.
3. determination of distances and hyperroute types Okay, so do we count pixels on the available .jpgs fn the maps, after deciding on a baseline map to use? (Modi's?)
4. data entry Yeah... that would be a lot of work, but probably not as much as step 3 for all those hyperroutes. It should be in the form of network data. Network data would list all the hyperroutes, with fields for each side of a route between two points, the level of the route (ZzaphodD's suggestion being 1 for super routes, 1.5 for galactic routes, etc.) multiplied by the distance. Each of these would be a dyad.
5. entering data into a network analysis program that could make a list of the least number of dyads between each two places. That list would be big.
6. Developing an interface that would make that user-friendly, and accommodate the entering of hyperdrive classes and results from astrogation rolls to determine the result.
Yes, this is a major development and a TON of work. It would be a great commercial project, but I am not sure that the fanbase would make it commercially successful or be able/willing to support building it with fan labor. Space travel at the speed of plot is a lot easier.
But then, I'm new here. Perhaps I underestimate the power of this fanbase. |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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On a bit of a relevant tangent...
Anyone who has been sledding will probably know that fresh snow slows you down. The first run is slow, as are the next couple afterwards, but eventually, the snow begins to pack on the sled run, and your speeds increase. Usually, for about the first two dozen slides, they get progressively longer, since there is less friction on the course and you retain enough momentum to crash through more unpacked snow at the bottom.
I kind of wonder if there may be a similar dynamic operating on hyperroutes. What if the travel time decreases when a lane is well traveled, and hyperspace explorers literally make new paths for others to follow.
I can't think of any canon references to anything like this, but it seems a good idea to keep in mind at least.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16381
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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On a similar tangent, gravity and galactic spin might have an effect as well, so that ships traveling coreward or spinward might move faster because gravity is pulling them along...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I kind of wonder if there may be a similar dynamic operating on hyperroutes. What if the travel time decreases when a lane is well traveled, and hyperspace explorers literally make new paths for others to follow |
I think you are right. The Essential Atlas mentions that everytime a ship docks at many spaceports, updates on navigational data are downloaded, and the relevant sensor record is uploaded to the Space Ministry. So, hyperroutes are constantly being mapped and re-mapped, with increasing accuracy.
This aspect, I think, would be modeled in the type of hyperroute we're looking at. In the long run, the hyperroutes should become faster to travel.
| crmcneill wrote: | | On a similar tangent, gravity and galactic spin might have an effect as well, so that ships traveling coreward or spinward might move faster because gravity is pulling them along... |
That's not implausible. Do you think that should be modeled? It would mean that every dyad would have to be coded for directionality. That means doubling the dataset.
Last edited by Mikael Hasselstein on Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | I kind of wonder if there may be a similar dynamic operating on hyperroutes. What if the travel time decreases when a lane is well traveled, and hyperspace explorers literally make new paths for others to follow.
I can't think of any canon references to anything like this, but it seems a good idea to keep in mind at least. |
I thought there were references to this. Maybe in the second Han Solo trilogy or in the WEG rules or source books?
It seems clear from the travel times we see in the movies that travel is extraordinarily fast on some routes. There may be a number of reasons for this. Here are some we have used as rationales.
I assume that a fast route is one where:
(1) There is an easy path without complicated astronomical bodies or gas clouds blocking the route.
(2) The route is well traveled. Many ships traversing the same route allow for the mapping of any previously undiscovered rogue asteroids, clouds, or whatever. Since the navigation cutout drops a ship out of hyper before running into a mass shadow, ships that discover unknown objects after dropping out would typically report them. No doubt doing so is a legal requirement. Then the object could be swept out of the way - see (4). Of course pirates and maybe even Rebels may neglect to report a previously undiscovered object.
(3) A route with navigation beacons or bouys in place to assist travelers in finding the safe path. Again it is likely the well traveled routes get the beacons and a route with a beacon is likely to become even more well traveled.
(4) In addition to gettting beacons, a well traveled route may be "swept" for to remove rogue bodies. See (2).
(5) Some routes may just be faster. Not sure of the reason. Maybe there are currents in hyperspace, maybe some areas of hyperspace are thinner and present less resistance to travel, maybe some areas of hyperspace are scaled to a smaller dimension so that travel is shorter in hyperspace there and hence travel is faster. Or whatever hand wave you want to invent.
(6) A large database of safe historical calculations exists from previous jumps. This would tend to make public routes become faster over time as more and more travelers calculate and contribute their safe course coordinates to the database. Note: This assumes BOSS or someone maintains, updates, and makes available such a database. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16381
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | On a similar tangent, gravity and galactic spin might have an effect as well, so that ships traveling coreward or spinward might move faster because gravity is pulling them along... |
That's not implausible. Do you think that should be modeled? It would mean that every dyad would have to be coded for directionality. That means doubling the dataset. |
Nah. It was just a thought. Things are complicated enough as it is.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | On a similar tangent, gravity and galactic spin might have an effect as well, so that ships traveling coreward or spinward might move faster because gravity is pulling them along... |
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Actually, crmcneill wrote that... Credit where it's due!
| Bren wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | I kind of wonder if there may be a similar dynamic operating on hyperroutes. What if the travel time decreases when a lane is well traveled, and hyperspace explorers literally make new paths for others to follow.
I can't think of any canon references to anything like this, but it seems a good idea to keep in mind at least. |
I thought there were references to this. Maybe in the second Han Solo trilogy or in the WEG rules or source books?
It seems clear from the travel times we see in the movies that travel is extraordinarily fast on some routes. There may be a number of reasons for this. Here are some we have used as rationales.
I assume that a fast route is one where:
(1) There is an easy path without complicated astronomical bodies or gas clouds blocking the route.
(2) The route is well traveled. Many ships traversing the same route allow for the mapping of any previously undiscovered rogue asteroids, clouds, or whatever. Since the navigation cutout drops a ship out of hyper before running into a mass shadow, ships that discover unknown objects after dropping out would typically report them. No doubt doing so is a legal requirement. Then the object could be swept out of the way - see (4). Of course pirates and maybe even Rebels may neglect to report a previously undiscovered object.
(3) A route with navigation beacons or bouys in place to assist travelers in finding the safe path. Again it is likely the well traveled routes get the beacons and a route with a beacon is likely to become even more well traveled.
(4) In addition to gettting beacons, a well traveled route may be "swept" for to remove rogue bodies. See (2).
(5) Some routes may just be faster. Not sure of the reason. Maybe there are currents in hyperspace, maybe some areas of hyperspace are thinner and present less resistance to travel, maybe some areas of hyperspace are scaled to a smaller dimension so that travel is shorter in hyperspace there and hence travel is faster. Or whatever hand wave you want to invent.
(6) A large database of safe historical calculations exists from previous jumps. This would tend to make public routes become faster over time as more and more travelers calculate and contribute their safe course coordinates to the database. Note: This assumes BOSS or someone maintains, updates, and makes available such a database. |
Could be. It's been ages since I read the Han Solo trilogy.
I was mostly thinking of the possibilities of frequent usage increasing the actual speed of travel, but your ideas are more plausible.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16381
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Actually, crmcneill wrote that... Credit where it's due! |
Thank you very much, Fallon 8)
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | On a similar tangent, gravity and galactic spin might have an effect as well, so that ships traveling coreward or spinward might move faster because gravity is pulling them along... |
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Actually, crmcneill wrote that... Credit where it's due! |
Quite right - I've fixed it. Thank you. I forgot to change the name after C&Ping the code.
Anyway, it's all good now. Nothing to see. These are not the bad citations you're looking for.
So - how many people would be eager to help out with the tedious elements of such a project. Anybody who is more web-savvy (and able to write html code that links to databases) than me want to take over the hard parts? |
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Krapou
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Bordeaux, France
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:41 am Post subject: |
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By the way, some maps and information of the Essential Atlas are available to download :
http://www.starwars.com/atlas/index.html
(this atlas is awesome, and since wookieepedia used its map coordinates to locate planets I use it quite a lot  )
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Last edited by Krapou on Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Krapou wrote: | By the way, some maps and information of the Essential Atlas are available to download :
http://www.starwars.com/atlas/index.html
(this atlas is awesome, and since wookieepedia used its map coordinates to locate planets I use use it quite a lot ) |
Oh wow, that's totally amazing! That solves step 1 of the challenge. Thank you! |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14303
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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I have always wondered if there was any guide to actually 'path finding' new hyperspace routes.. like ave times, diff etc. OR what rewards you get for doing so...
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I have always wondered if there was any guide to actually 'path finding' new hyperspace routes.. like ave times, diff etc. OR what rewards you get for doing so... |
Such as what is the value of a "patent" on a new hyperroute?
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 810
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I have always wondered if there was any guide to actually 'path finding' new hyperspace routes.. like ave times, diff etc. OR what rewards you get for doing so... |
I would imagine that would vary very widely. I imagine that Imperial or Old/New Republic hyperroute plotters get a base pay, whereas corporate or independent hyperroute plotters can charge what the market will accept, depending on the prospective value of the route in question.
If the route connects to a system that was never before explored, the value of the newly plotted route would depend on the prospective value of the system. If there already was a different hyperroute to a system, the route's worth would depend on the opportunity cost. The opportunity cost would be how much time/energy/consumables are saved by the new route as opposed to older route for the bulk of the traffic.
I imagine that this is also what you were thinking. |
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