2E Scale Charts

[Bren]

Introduction
OK, so I've seen a number of posts both old and new referring to the wonderfulness of the 2E Scale charts. Now, I never learned to love them in 2E. The charts are poorly formatted, hard to read, contain superflous or erroneous information, and for some odd reason there are three charts to cover four actions: To Hit, To Dodge, To Damage, and To Resist rather than the more logical four (unary) charts or two 2x2 (binary) charts that could be used. I also have a confession, a sort of dirty little secret. I don't think I ever really understood what the 2E charts were trying to tell me. So based on the idea that it was unlikely to be the case that all the folks liking the 2E scale rules (Fallon Kell, Grimace, Vanir, ZzaphodD, and you others - you know who you are) were crack brained reactionaries. I decided to take another look at how the 2E scaling charts worked and to think about what the charts were trying to simulate. Here is what I found out.

Preliminary Notes and Conclusions
1. For reference: a copy of the original WEG 2E Scale Charts can be found on page 2 of the following thread about midway down the page. http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=972&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15.
2. There are irrelevant entries in all the 2E tables, e.g. (i) the upper right section of the To Hit chart includes to hit numbers for scales that cannot actually damage Capital or Death Star scales, (ii) the lower left of the To Damage chart includes damages for Capital and Death Star scale weapons even though they cannot hit character scale weapons, and (iii) the To Dodge chart includes entry for starfighters dodging Death Star attackers, even though from the To Hit chart, Death Star’s cannot hit a starfighter scale target. By clearing up these irrelevant entries the tables can be made a bit simpler to read.
I have done this in a set of corrected tables I created. I am happy to share them if someone can suggest a good way to make the file (MS-Word or PDF available).
3. The chance to hit and the chance to dodge to avoid a hit are listed in separate tables, while the chance to damage and the chance to resist damage are combined in a single table. This can be cleared up by either using four simple unary-result tables or two binary-result tables.
I have done this for a set of four unary tables as well as the set of two binary tables. Any proof reading of the tables once posted is more than welcome.
4. A mathematical note, while symmetric tables are easier to memorize and are often pleasing to the eye, asymmetric tables generally contain more information than a same size symmetric table. In particular this is the case for the To Dodge Scale Chart, which combines information on vehicle size, speed, and motion as well as attacking weapon area affect.

Analysis of the various scales
Note that in the analysis below, CAP or CAPs refer to die cap(s).
All
• To Hit: CAPs are not symmetric to the To Dodge CAPs. All scales can hit anything equal or larger in scale with full dice. If a smaller scale can be hit, the ‘To Hit’ roll will have a die CAP < 6. Death Star scale can only hit Capital or Death Star scale.
• To Dodge: CAPs are not symmetric to the To Hit CAPs. Dodge rolls do not follow any simple or regular pattern.
• To Damage: CAPs are always symmetric to the To Resist CAPs. All scales can damage anything equal or smaller in scale that they can hit with full dice. The roll to damage anything larger in scale will have a die CAP < 6 (and the effect may be no damage). Death Stars can only be damaged by Capital or Death Star scales.
• To Resist: CAPs are always symmetric to the To Damage CAPs. All scales resist damage from anything equal or smaller in scale with full dice. If a larger scale can hit a smaller, the smaller scale will resist with a die CAP < 6.

Character
• To Dodge: Speeder and Walker scale CAPs =5, Starfighter scale CAP =3. Presumably this is due to an area blast effect from the larger scale weapons.
• To Damage: Speeder scale CAP =3, Walker and Starfighter scale CAPs=2. Capital and Death Star scales cannot be damaged.
• To Resist: CAPs are symmetric to the To Damage CAPs.

Speeder
• To Hit: Character scale CAP=4.
• To Dodge: Walker CAP =5, Starfighter CAP =4, Capital CAP=2. Presumably this is due to an area blast effect from the larger scale weapons.
• To Damage: Walker and Starfigher CAPs=3, Capital CAP=1.
• To Resist: CAPs are symmetric to the To Damage CAPs.

Walker
• To Hit: Character CAP=3, Speeder CAP=5.
• To Dodge: Is unique since Walkers cannot dodge Character or Capital scales, but can be damaged by them. Speeder and Starfighter CAPs=2. Obviously Walkers are the least maneuverable scale.
• To Damage: Starfighter CAP=3, Capital CAP=1.
• To Resist: CAPs are symmetric to the To Damage CAPs.

Starfighter
• To Hit: Character CAP=2, Speeder CAP=4, Walker CAP=5.
• To Dodge: Is unique. All CAPs=6. Clearly Starfighters are the most maneuverable scale.
• To Damage: Capital CAP=3.
• To Resist: CAPs are symmetric to To Damage CAPs.

Capital
• To Hit: Speeder and Walker CAPs=2, Starfigher CAP=3.
• To Dodge: Cannot dodge Speeder or Walker scales. Starfigher CAP=2, Death Star CAP=4. Presumably ground units are firing at Capital ships in stationary orbit, which cannot dodge, and Death Star CAP is due to area blast effect.
• To Damage: Death Star CAP=1.
• To Resist: CAPs are symmetric to To Damage CAPs.

Death Star
• To Hit: Capital CAP=3.
• To Dodge: Capital CAP=3.
• To Damage: No CAPs, but can only hit Capital and Death Star scales.
• To Resist: CAPS are symmetric to To Damage CAPs. Can only be damaged by Capital or Death Star scales.

I am not very strongly considering a return to the 2E scaling rules facilitated by my new understanding and a set of easier to read Scale Charts.

[Fallon Kell]

That was a good read, but now I feel incomplete without a way for my rank subtitle to read "crack brained reactionary"!

[Grimace]

Ha ha ha! "Crack brained reactionary" FTW!

I'll give you credit for giving it the gung-ho try. Yes, the charts they provided were rather wonky. I could see where this could cause confusion in people who weren't able to fully understand the wonkiness.

For what it's worth, I modified the charts to reflect somewhat of the "2x2 (binary)" chart you mentioned. Basically, the charts that WEG provided gave added flavor to certain scales (as you discovered). Walkers were lumbering beasts that couldn't do much dodging at all. Where WEG went wrong was making it, as you noted, non-uniform in nature. A person couldn't go "oh, you're two scales below, so you're dice are capped at X for resisting damage and for dealing damage." That was an error on their part that prompted many to dislike the die cap method of scales.

Where die caps excel compared to R&E is due to the uniformity of dice rolled (you always roll what you normall roll, only the amount on the dice are capped) and the reality of the scale differences (a Character scale weapon will NEVER damage a Capital scale object, even though the Character scale weapon can no doubt hit the capital scale object).

Honestly, the best way to go about the die cap method for 2e (unless you want all the nuances flavor that WEG put into it) is to go with something like this.

Character scale - Character scale = 6 / 6
Character - Speeder = 4 / 6
Character - Walker = 2 / 6
Character - Starfighter = 1 / 6
Character - Capital = - / 6
Character - Death Star = - / 6

Speeder - Character = 6 / 4
Speeder - Speeder = 6 / 6
Speeder - Walker = 4 / 6
Speeder - Starfighter = 2 / 6
Speeder - Capital = 1 / 6
Speeder - Death Star = - / 6

Walker - Character = 6 / 2
Walker - Speeder = 6 / 4
Walker - Walker = 6 / 6
Walker - Starfighter = 4 / 6
Walker - Capital = 2 / 6
Walker - Death Star = 1 / 6

Starfighter - Character = 6 / 1
Starfighter - Speeder = 6 / 2
Starfighter - Walker = 6 / 4
Starfighter - Starfighter = 6 / 6
Starfighter - Capital = 4 / 6
Starfighter - Death Star = 2 / 6

Capital - Character - 6 / -
Capital - Speeder = 6 / 1
Capital - Walker = 6 / 2
Capital - Starfighter = 6 / 4
Capital - Capital = 6 / 6
Capital - Death Star = 4 / 6

DS - Character = 6 / -
DS - Speeder = 6 / -
DS - Walker = 6 / 1
DS - Starfighter = 6 / 2
DS - Capital = 6 / 4
DS - DS = 6 / 6

That way you simply use the same numbers and adjust for what's affecting what. Smaller going at larger, smaller scale is capped for damage and resisting, larger scale is capped for hitting and dodging. Easy.

[Bren]

[atgxtg]

One of the reasons for the asymetical tables is that the die caps don't make it any easier to hit larger targets.

For instacne, if you a flying an X-Wing and are shooting at the Death Star, by the 2E tables, it is just as difficult to hit as a TIE Interceptor!

[Bren]

[ZzaphodD]

I like the fact the 2nd (and 1st) ed keep the relative damage values between different weapons even between scales. In 2nd&RE they end up causing almost the same amount of damage because of the equalizing factor of the added dice.

What I dont like with the scale system is that the increased difficulty of hitting targets follows the increased damage output. For example a speeders/walkers weapons should also be made to target character scale targets. Especially the lighter weapons. This could be done with adding FC, but this is seldom (if ever) done.
_________________
My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course..

[Bren]

[garhkal]

I know several of the walkers i have made, added a few speeder or character scale weapons to hit those pesky people that were shooting back.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[ZzaphodD]

[Bren]

It's also good to remember that though the speeder and walker scale To Hit is capped, the character dodge is also capped (though at a higher level). So it isn't entirely one sided in favor of the character.

[garhkal]

[atgxtg]

[ZzaphodD]

[Fallon Kell]