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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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 Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I have seen many good gms who fail to have players act out their characters fear/emotions... |
I dont doubt you have seen many GMs who have failed at this... I doubt you have seen many good GMs fail though... 
Also, therese the issue of players who dont play a RPG, but forcing a mechanic on everyone because you are not a good GM or have a player who should really be playing video games isnt really a good solution IMO.
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I have flat out had players who would have their characters fail to show fear in te face of even undead eating their comrades and they were next (like when paralyzed by a ghoul)... |
Again, either bad GM, bad players or a combination of both. A mechanic wont fix the basic problem, but may shoehorn those gaming group into the 'desired' behaviour. Will those kind of players accept it? Perhaps.
| Quote: | | Isn't force lightning extremely painful? However much I would like to fry my enemies with lightning bolts and choke them from a distance, some powers are just meant to be dark side... |
This is something I reacted to at my first contact with Star Wars in the 80s. My houserule since then is that if you take damage from Force Lightning you are affected by a Inflict Pain as well, and you are always at least Stunned. Also makes sens to use the power given its rather crappy 'damage output'.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | No point in being silly! |
There generally isn't, but that has never stopped me before.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | I dont doubt you have seen many GMs who have failed at this... I doubt you have seen many good GMs fail though... |
Not all good gm's can reign in players...
| ZzaphodD wrote: |
Also, therese the issue of players who dont play a RPG, but forcing a mechanic on everyone because you are not a good GM or have a player who should really be playing video games isnt really a good solution IMO.
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Why not? There are already mechanics in play in some regards for flat out taking over their pc's in certain situations, or charge double cost/time (ADND) for training due to poor performance..
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Again, either bad GM, bad players or a combination of both. A mechanic wont fix the basic problem, but may shoehorn those gaming group into the 'desired' behaviour. Will those kind of players accept it? Perhaps. |
How is that a bad gm?
| ZzaphodD wrote: |
This is something I reacted to at my first contact with Star Wars in the 80s. My houserule since then is that if you take damage from Force Lightning you are affected by a Inflict Pain as well, and you are always at least Stunned. Also makes sens to use the power given its rather crappy 'damage output'. |
IIRC doesn't the power say even if all you take is a stun, you are "writhing around in excrutiating pain for 2 rounds"?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: |
This is something I reacted to at my first contact with Star Wars in the 80s. My houserule since then is that if you take damage from Force Lightning you are affected by a Inflict Pain as well, and you are always at least Stunned. Also makes sens to use the power given its rather crappy 'damage output'. |
IIRC doesn't the power say even if all you take is a stun, you are "writhing around in excrutiating pain for 2 rounds"? |
It does in Inflict Pain, but not Force Lightning. With Force Lightning, the description says that it inflicts pain, but doesn't really reflect it in the actual stats. IMO, ZzaphodD's rule is a better reflection of the way Force Lightning seems to work in the canon.
On a related note, how should the apparent Telekinetic effect of Force Lightning be player? In E2, when Count Dooku uses Force Lightning on Anakin, Anakin is seen to fly up in the air and off to one side to land against a rock wall, with Dooku's Force Lightning hitting him the whole way. It is seen to lesser effect in E3, where Sidious' Force Lightning knocks Yoda across the room. Should Force Lightning also be modified to include partial telekinetic control over the target, as in which direction they get tossed by the blast?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:16 am Post subject: |
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I would say it is based on the difference in power level (alter versus alter). Each D of difference between target and user gives the user 1d of 'tk' effect to manipulate where they go.. (ave of that d value)..
IIRC Dooku in ATOC was around 13d, where as Anakin was 6 or 7d.. which is 6d (lets say) diff, for a 6x3.5 or 21 on the TK chart. Easily able to toss him asside.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | I would say it is based on the difference in power level (alter versus alter). Each D of difference between target and user gives the user 1d of 'tk' effect to manipulate where they go.. (ave of that d value)..
IIRC Dooku in ATOC was around 13d, where as Anakin was 6 or 7d.. which is 6d (lets say) diff, for a 6x3.5 or 21 on the TK chart. Easily able to toss him asside. |
That's as good a rule as any. All of these facets added together would definitely make Force Lightning a more versatile power than TK Kill.
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Random Numbers
Commander
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:09 am Post subject: |
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How do you know he didn't use two different force powers?
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:36 am Post subject: |
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What.. FL then TK? By the rpg rules, that couldn't happen.
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | What.. FL then TK? By the rpg rules, that couldn't happen. |
According to the rules force lightning does not include telekinesis.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | What.. FL then TK? By the rpg rules, that couldn't happen. |
According to the rules force lightning does not include telekinesis. |
Ah, but the rules should reflect the canon, and the canon shows that Force Lightning includes a TK effect (See Dooku vs. Anakin in E2). In all fairness, the movie was produced long after the rules for Force Lightning were put in place by WEG, but WEG didn't even do a very good job of making a realistic rule for Force Lightning based on the original movies.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Ah, but the rules should reflect the canon, and the canon shows... |
Ah, but the canon also shows force lightning causing Palpatine to permanently shrivel up and age. Yet that doesn't happen to Dooku. Why not? |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Ah, but the canon also shows force lightning causing Palpatine to permanently shrivel up and age. Yet that doesn't happen to Dooku. Why not? |
Because Dooku wasn't being hit by his own Force Lightning, reflected back on him by a powerful Jedi Master with a lightsaber. Look at Sidious' face during that scene and you can see him being shocked by it.
IMO, using existing rules, I think Sidious used Force Lightning on Windu, who was able to parry the lightning back at Sidious and inflict lethal damage. Sidious was then forced to use Reduce Injury to keep from being killed, but ended up permanently scarred and disfigured as a result (if one is willing to stretch the description of Reduce Injury and let heavy scarring count as being maimed).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Random Numbers
Commander
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Random Numbers wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | What.. FL then TK? By the rpg rules, that couldn't happen. |
According to the rules force lightning does not include telekinesis. |
Ah, but the rules should reflect the canon, and the canon shows that Force Lightning includes a TK effect (See Dooku vs. Anakin in E2). In all fairness, the movie was produced long after the rules for Force Lightning were put in place by WEG, but WEG didn't even do a very good job of making a realistic rule for Force Lightning based on the original movies. |
The canon does not show that force lightning includes telekinesis. It's far more likely that the evil doer also uses telekinesis at the same time. If the RAW states that you can't use two force powers in the same round, then that's probably what's not canon.
Speaking of canon. If I wrote a star wars book about flying bananas in the service of the empire and Lucas made another film where it was revealed that mice were behind the sith empire, would you include that in your games?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | The canon does not show that force lightning includes telekinesis. It's far more likely that the evil doer also uses telekinesis at the same time. If the RAW states that you can't use two force powers in the same round, then that's probably what's not canon.
Speaking of canon. If I wrote a star wars book about flying bananas in the service of the empire and Lucas made another film where it was revealed that mice were behind the sith empire, would you include that in your games? |
You are taking the difference between possible and probable to the point of absurdity. However, to address your points in order:
1). The canon has been defined by George Lucas as "the movies and everything that doesn't contradict them". Within that description, there tend to be officially recognized hierarchies, with regard to what trumps what if there are contradictions between the various non-movie materials.
With regards to Force Lightning, Force Lightning is seen in the prequels to have an accompanied Telekinetic effect. In AOTC, Dooku not only zaps Anakin with the lightning, he lifts him up in the air and tosses him sideways against a rock wall. In ROTS, when Sidious battles Yoda, there are at least two occasions where Force Lightning is shown to transfer kinetic energy to its target (in the initial attack, where Yoda is thrown backwards against the wall, and later in the Senate chamber, where Yoda is shown being slowly edged backwards by Sidious' Force Lightning attack). I do not think that Sidious would split his attention between TK an Force Lightning when battling such a powerful opponent, so it is more realistic to me (especially based on the AOTC Count Dooku scene) that Force Lightning has an attendant Telekinetic effect.
2). In the case of your story about flying bananas, your story would have to be approved by Lucas Books and successfully pass through the editing process at Del Rey. Not to slight your literary skills, but I find it highly unlikely that your story would merit any reaction from Lucas Books apart from amusement and an immediate deposit in the circular file.
3). On the other hand, if Lucas were to make another film about mice being behind the Empire, and release it as seventh Star Wars film, it would technically be considered canon, especially if he backed it with media statements to that effect (assuring us all that it wasn't his attempt at satire). After seeing the prequels and the Clone Wars TV series, I'm not entirely convinced that Lucas wouldn't screw over the Star Wars fan community like that, but I do find it highly unlikely. That being said, the odds are high that I would either disregard the story or stop being a Star Wars fan altogether.
P.S. There is also the potential that George would get sued by the estate of Douglas Adams for intellectual property copyright infringement.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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All this excessive talk about canon evidence do nothing to move my shorts so I'll leave you guys to it. :/
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